Hammer
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alan-g-w
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Registered: 9th Nov 07
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I was reading an interesting letter someone wrote into the Record the other day. It was agreeing with a previous person stating their concerns over the price of postage rising, in particular what it would do to small businesses. They went on to say it's not only this plus the supermarkets raising prices, there are 54 other goods/ services which Britain has negotiated with the EU since it was set up to allow them to be sold tax free - things like baby clothes, kids clothes, books, disability equipment and more. An independent Scotland would be a brand new country and lose these deals. It seems that day to day living would go up in price in an independent Scotland but I've not heard anything about how real peoples' wages are going to rise in line with this.
John Swinney's the fucking Scottish Santa Claus at this point - he's got to fulfill promises of finding a way here to tax less, borrow less but spend more. There's no foreign policy written out - Indian girl on the news the other night at Salmond's teflon answer session asked him whether she would need a single visa to visit the remaining UK and Scotland in the one trip or whether she would need to apply to both Scotland and UK. He couldn't give her a straight answer. These sort of little things not being hammered out BEFORE the vote coupled with the fact I still don't know 100% for certain what my wages will be paid in, whether it's a foreign country's currency ie. Pound Sterling, a new setup or... the Euro... means that that Alex Salmond and his team of cronies have led a reckless, selfish campaign. 'aww come on, just give us your vote then we'll thrash out all the shite people haven't even thought about after, it'll restore Scottish pride, we have the will of the people, etc., etc.'
Labour will be voted in in May, with or without independence. This mean that the SNP, Alex Salmond in particular, will be responsible for the splitting up of Britain... then leave it to Labour to clean up the mess.
[Edited on 13-09-2014 by alan-g-w]
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Hammer
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Registered: 11th Feb 04
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The price of postage will go up  should have seen that coming, there's nothing left we won't have to pay more for.
I wonder how the likes of The Isle of Man survives.
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Pop
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Registered: 8th May 03
Location: Reading
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What's more scary is that none of what Alan has pointed out concerns you.
But wait... At least it will be Scotland's choices etc etc
I watched Salmond getting interviewed this morning by Andrew Marr and it was a complete car crash.
If you want independence that's fine and if you do get it I honestly hope it goes well. Only time will tell.
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Hammer
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Why would I be concerned about lies and scaremongering? Are No voters concerned about the Nobel Prize winning Economist, Joseph Stiglitz, stating we are at far greater risk staying part of the Union?
There is zero factual basis in suggesting we will pay more for stamps in an Independent Scotland, just as there is zero factual basis that shopping will cost more or the banks will run away.
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Pop
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There is also no factual evidence that everything will stay the same or get better.
What is a fact is that the UK take a hit on transporting food up to Scotland. Without us subsidising that it is unlikely that the supermarkets will take the hit on their own bottom line.
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Hammer
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You've just highlighted 1 variable that they take into account when they set pricing, a standard tactic of the Better Together campaign. For example local produce will reduce in price, similar to Ireland so the cost of fresh items in wholesale cost to the Supermarkets would go down in real terms
Regardless they won't go up because of basic economics, if ASDA put their prices up people will shop at Tesco. ASDA will then have to reduce their prices in order to compete with Tesco and the status quo remains.
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Cavey
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Registered: 11th Nov 02
Location: Derby
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The postage thing is interesting. Seems like its been proposed that its re-nationalised if independence goes through, again, no mention of how that will happen as they'd seemingly have to sort it out with Westminster to get a part of the government held share as their own.
Surely posting to England would be more expensive as it'd be international post?
Oh and as Scotland isn't densely populated and has a lot of rural villages, if its only Scottish post then they won't be able to cover the cost of maintaining the USO to the small villages as costs won't be covered by densely populated areas, as they are in the UK, So I'd say its fair to assume a higher price of postage in Scotland.
Not that that should really be a decisive matter in the vote really
[Edited on 14-09-2014 by Cavey]
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Hammer
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Registered: 11th Feb 04
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Nah it's a minor issue being brought in as a political tool.
As you say public ownership instantly removes the pressure to generate profits for shareholders. The Scottish government would also subsidise the services to rural communities anyway but the cost in relative terms is minimal. The percentage of mail to and from these places in comparison to the 70 million pieces of mail posted per day is less than marginal.
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Pop
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Registered: 8th May 03
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quote:
Originally posted by Hammer
You've just highlighted 1 variable that they take into account when they set pricing, a standard tactic of the Better Together campaign. For example local produce will reduce in price, similar to Ireland so the cost of fresh items in wholesale cost to the Supermarkets would go down in real terms
Regardless they won't go up because of basic economics, if ASDA put their prices up people will shop at Tesco. ASDA will then have to reduce their prices in order to compete with Tesco and the status quo remains.
Get a grip. How much of the food in your local big supermarket do you think is local produce?
I wouldn't put it past the supermarkets to get together and agree a uniform rise to cover costs. The phone networks have already taken a united stance to ensure they don't get shafted.
You call anything negative scaremongering. In some cases it may well be, but there is no way that Scotland will find everything rosy if they vote Yes.
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Hammer
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Registered: 11th Feb 04
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quote:
Originally posted by Pop
quote:
Originally posted by Hammer
You've just highlighted 1 variable that they take into account when they set pricing, a standard tactic of the Better Together campaign. For example local produce will reduce in price, similar to Ireland so the cost of fresh items in wholesale cost to the Supermarkets would go down in real terms
Regardless they won't go up because of basic economics, if ASDA put their prices up people will shop at Tesco. ASDA will then have to reduce their prices in order to compete with Tesco and the status quo remains.
Get a grip. How much of the food in your local big supermarket do you think is local produce?
I wouldn't put it past the supermarkets to get together and agree a uniform rise to cover costs. The phone networks have already taken a united stance to ensure they don't get shafted.
You call anything negative scaremongering. In some cases it may well be, but there is no way that Scotland will find everything rosy if they vote Yes.
Who said Scotland will find everything rosy if they vote Yes? Not one person, including anyone from the SNP, has suggested that Independence will be anything other than a challenge. What isn't relevant to that challenge is bullshit lies formed a week before a Referendum to scare people into voting a certain way though.
You are focusing on the sensationalist propaganda as many others are with no balance. There's no front page spreads when the owner of Wetherspoons says the price of booze could go down, Cash and Carry bosses laugh at suggestions of price increases or Martin Gilbert of Aberdeen Asset Management (with turnover of £1 billion+) says we will prosper no matter what and with a Currency Union.
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Pop
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Registered: 8th May 03
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If you look back through this thread, that was started months ago, many of the things being talked about now were discussed back then. There are still no answers... But don't worry, you'll have 18 months to get everything into place.
Unfortunately you suffer from an issue, most commonly known as selective reading, which frustrates anyone wanting to have a sensible debate. If you really disagree with something you call it laughable, sensationalist or scaremongering. If it's a well made point you just gloss over it with blissful ignorance.
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Hammer
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Registered: 11th Feb 04
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quote:
Originally posted by Pop
If you look back through this thread, that was started months ago, many of the things being talked about now were discussed back then. There are still no answers... But don't worry, you'll have 18 months to get everything into place.
Unfortunately you suffer from an issue, most commonly known as selective reading, which frustrates anyone wanting to have a sensible debate. If you really disagree with something you call it laughable, sensationalist or scaremongering. If it's a well made point you just gloss over it with blissful ignorance.
Who is turning this into something personal, me or you? If you have a problem with something I've said or suggested then 'have a sensible debate' and pick up on it.
The things being discussed months ago that are still being discussed is because the propagandist media are regurgitating stories with less than a week until the vote. Supermarkets made their stance known months ago, before the Prime Minister had them sitting at Downing Street last week and the quotes from RBS etc... are rehashes of the same quotes from the start of the year.
You accuse me of blissful ignorance yet haven't got a basic grasp of the debate that's happening up here. You sound frustrated when I disagree with you and provide facts to back it up.
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Dom
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Registered: 13th Sep 03
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quote:
Originally posted by Hammer
What isn't relevant to that challenge is bullshit lies....
What are these so-called 'bullshit lies', Hammer?
Tbf, most of what is being discussed, and what you seem to be classing as 'lies' and 'scaremongering', can't be backed up by either side - it's all if's and but's as no one really knows what's exactly going to happen. There's a good chance Scotland might prosper being independent but similarly, there's a very serious and good chance that 'shit will hit fan' (for all of us).
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Pop
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I've both agreed and disagreed with you on several points and have openly acknowledged when I have been incorrect.
I'm sorry if pointing out your inability to cope with anything anti-Yes has upset you, it wasn't my intention.
You would argue that an apple wasn't an apple... I'm out
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Hammer
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Registered: 11th Feb 04
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quote:
Originally posted by Dom
quote:
Originally posted by Hammer
What isn't relevant to that challenge is bullshit lies....
What are these so-called 'bullshit lies', Hammer?
Tbf, most of what is being discussed, and what you seem to be classing as 'lies' and 'scaremongering', can't be backed up by either side - it's all if's and but's as no one really knows what's exactly going to happen. There's a good chance Scotland might prosper being independent but similarly, there's a very serious and good chance that 'shit will hit fan' (for all of us).
- Supermarket prices will go up - the Supermarkets say otherwise.
- Postage will go up - the Scottish Government has said it won't and they will subsidise the shortfall if required until it's brought back into public ownership.
- The banks are all moving to London - they're not, they're putting contingencies in place to change a Registered address and the processes and jobs will remain.
- We will lose tax revenues when the above happens - we won't, corporation tax is paid on revenue generated in a particular Country not where their Head Office is. The reporting of this point in particular, by supposedly clever people, embarrassing.
- There's no oil left - there is oil left, even by the most pessimistic estimates. It's a finite resource, however, Norway have a fund of 1 trillion Euros built up within a period of time shorter than those pessimistic estimates are suggesting North Sea supplies will run out. Our GDP per capita is comparable to the UK's without the oil anyway.
There's 5 off the top of my head from the past fortnight.
[Edited on 14-09-2014 by Hammer]
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Hammer
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quote:
Originally posted by Pop
I've both agreed and disagreed with you on several points and have openly acknowledged when I have been incorrect.
I'm sorry if pointing out your inability to cope with anything anti-Yes has upset you, it wasn't my intention.
You would argue that an apple wasn't an apple... I'm out
All apples will be square and cost twice as much in an Independent Scotland and we'll only be able to buy them if the rest of the UK lets us. - 'Better Together'
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Aaron
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Registered: 9th Aug 04
Location: Cottingham, East Riding
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I hope Scotland fuck off tbh
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Hammer
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Same mate 
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Pop
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Registered: 8th May 03
Location: Reading
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Top thing on my LinkedIn feed...
1951 Scotland voted Tory; we got a Tory Govt.
1955 Scotland voted Tory; we got a Tory Govt.
1959 Scotland voted Tory; we got a Tory Govt....
1964 Scotland voted Labour; we got a Labour Govt, however England voted Tory.
1966 Scotland voted Labour; we got a Labour Govt.
1974 (February) Scotland voted Labour; we got a Labour Govt, however England voted Tory,
1974 (October) Scotland voted Labour; we got a Labour Govt.
1979, 1983, 1987 & 1992 we had a Tory Govt thanks to the motion of No Confidence in Jim Callaghan's Labour Govt that the SNP tabled.
When Thatcher realised that the SNP were siding with her she then tabled her own motion of No Confidence, which took precedence over the SNP's motion. Supported by the 11 SNP MPs her motion of No Confidence was carried by 1 vote.
The SNP are responsible for starting the Thatcher years.
1997 Scotland voted Labour; we got a Labour Govt.
2001 Scotland voted Labour; we got a Labour Govt.
2005 Scotland voted Labour; we got a Labour Govt.
2010 Nobody got the Govt they voted for - only 7 months to go to the next election.
In 1999, Labour delivered devolution and no one can dispute that in 1997, 2003, 2007 and 2011 Scotland got what it voted for."
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alan-g-w
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Registered: 9th Nov 07
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Paraphrasing - 'the price of postage won't go up, it'll be subsidised'
Who pays for this susidisation? John Swinney and his big pot of black gold? I'm past falling out with people over this shite but tell me one thing I try to ask any Yes voter I come across - how do you reckon your day to day life will improve either daily, weekly, monthly or annually under independence?
[Edited on 14-09-2014 by alan-g-w]
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Hammer
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Registered: 11th Feb 04
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quote:
Originally posted by Pop
Top thing on my LinkedIn feed...
1951 Scotland voted Tory; we got a Tory Govt.
1955 Scotland voted Tory; we got a Tory Govt.
1959 Scotland voted Tory; we got a Tory Govt....
1964 Scotland voted Labour; we got a Labour Govt, however England voted Tory.
1966 Scotland voted Labour; we got a Labour Govt.
1974 (February) Scotland voted Labour; we got a Labour Govt, however England voted Tory,
1974 (October) Scotland voted Labour; we got a Labour Govt.
1979, 1983, 1987 & 1992 we had a Tory Govt thanks to the motion of No Confidence in Jim Callaghan's Labour Govt that the SNP tabled.
When Thatcher realised that the SNP were siding with her she then tabled her own motion of No Confidence, which took precedence over the SNP's motion. Supported by the 11 SNP MPs her motion of No Confidence was carried by 1 vote.
The SNP are responsible for starting the Thatcher years.
1997 Scotland voted Labour; we got a Labour Govt.
2001 Scotland voted Labour; we got a Labour Govt.
2005 Scotland voted Labour; we got a Labour Govt.
2010 Nobody got the Govt they voted for - only 7 months to go to the next election.
In 1999, Labour delivered devolution and no one can dispute that in 1997, 2003, 2007 and 2011 Scotland got what it voted for."
Scotland has voted for a Tory government 6 years out of 68 and has had a Tory government 38 years out of 68. We have voted Labour every time since 1955. We do not live in a democracy in this Country, we should get the Government we vote for not just when it coincides with our bigger neighbouring Country but every single time.
Surely you agree with that?
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taylorboosh
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Registered: 3rd Apr 07
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Im fucking sick of paying for you jock fucks to go to the dentist tbh - fucking soon as that yes vote goes through im going to start repairing our wall
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Hammer
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Registered: 11th Feb 04
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quote:
Originally posted by alan-g-w
Paraphrasing - 'the price of postage won't go up, it'll be subsidised'
Who pays for this susidisation? John Swinney and his big pot of black gold? I'm past falling out with people over this shite but tell me one thing I try to ask any Yes voter I come across - how do you reckon your day to day life will improve either daily, weekly, monthly or annually under independence?
[Edited on 14-09-2014 by alan-g-w]
The postage argument is a complete non-issue I'm not even sure why you brought it up. If anyone votes Yes or No because their letters cost a few pence more they need their head checked. It'll cost next to nothing, the overall percentage of remote areas and their incoming and outgoing mail is marginal in comparison with the entire Country.
I want Scotland to be Independent because I believe we are our own Country with different visions and values than the UK as a whole and as such we should be able to govern and look after ourselves. I also want the elitist, antiquated, establishment shaken up not only for us but for our friends in England, Wales and Northern Ireland as well.
Ask yourself this, why have thousands perished in their pursuit of Independence from Great Britain and other nations yet all we have to do is stick a cross in a box and that is perceived as wrong? Do you think we can't cope by ourselves or is there some other reason?
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Pop
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Registered: 8th May 03
Location: Reading
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Hammer - I will hold my hands up and say I don't know enough about the history to pass comment, however, the Scottish vote has aligned with the parties voted into power.
I am not against you voting for independence, I would be keen on democracy in your shoes. I would question if the people pushing for it can be trusted any more or less than the ones you so passionately dislike in Westminster though.
Obviously you think the reward is worth the risk, it will be interesting to see if the majority feel that way.
[Edited on 14-09-2014 by Pop]
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