Brett
Premium Member
Registered: 16th Dec 02
Location: Manchester
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ha ha 
steve is right
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Hammer
Member
Registered: 11th Feb 04
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quote:
Originally posted by SVM 286
quote:
Originally posted by Sxi04
quote:
Originally posted by SVM 286
quote:
Originally posted by DarrenGSi
yes svm but as the planes wheels are free-turning, the can go at any speed and not affect the plane. the plane speed comes from the engine and pushes the air backwards which meanks it is not geographically stationary
For the love of God, PLEASE forget about the wheels for a minute.
The wheels DO NOT MATTER.
THE BODY OF THE PLANE and the BELT travel at the SAME speed.
We have already accepted that the belt runs in the opposite direction of the plane so the plane CANNOT move forward.
this is becoming relentless now...please explain to me how it is in any way shape or form possible for a mass to be moving at all yet be stationary?
The same way you wouldn't make any progress from a standpoint if you were running on a treadmill Mr. 04.
you have surely now got to be some sort of wind up merchant?
you are now telling me that the plane is moving at speed yet it is stationary? please please please say that i am wrong
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DarrenGSi
Member
Registered: 11th Jul 05
Location: East Ayrshire Drives: Civic Jordan 381
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When the plane is moving at 100 mph it's moving at 100 mph. The belt is whacking around at 100 mph the opposite way but its not stopping the plane since the wheels are just spinning underneathe it.
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Ian
Site Administrator
Registered: 28th Aug 99
Location: Liverpool
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OK consider this.
The planes wheels freewheel, and therefore don't effect forward or backward motion. In fact the only part which the wheels are playing is that they are offering exactly the same force upwards as gravity is offering downwards, therefore the plane doesn't fall on its belly but instead stands a few feet off the ground.
Change the wheel arranagement for something that would make the plane hover.
Same relation between forward and backward motion - none.
Same relation between gravity and holding the plane up - equal.
Now in the hovering craft, apply forward thrust to achieve air speed in one direction.
Now start moving the ground - your hoving craft doesn't care - the ground does not effect the plane.
The plane is free to move thus free to produce lift and take off.
The belt doesn't matter. Forget about the belt.
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Mase
Premium Member
Registered: 16th Sep 01
Location: Derbyshire
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in a sense the wheels are acting like a bearing between the two surfaces and therefore they are free to run over each other as fast as they want without impeding on each others progress (apart from a small frictional force between the two)
Mase
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SVM 286
Member
Registered: 13th Feb 05
Location: pain
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quote:
Originally posted by John
So its moving if you were standing on the conveyor belt but not outside it.
Thats it, you are taking the mick.
Well done.
You had me thinking you have the intelligence of a fruit fly for a minute there.
John, are you either drunk, Vibrio, or justr trying to annoy me?
If you are stood on the runway next to the conveyor belt the plane would maintain it's position from your standpoint wouldn't it?
If you were on the conveyor belt you would fly past the plane and shoot off the back of the belt, unless you could run as fast as the plane correct?
Is this not straight forward?
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Paul_J
Member
Registered: 6th Jun 02
Location: London
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quote:
Originally posted by DarrenGSi
When the plane is moving at 100 mph it's moving at 100 mph. The belt is whacking around at 100 mph the opposite way but its not stopping the plane since the wheels are just spinning underneathe it.
Bingo 
So when SVN says it can do lightspeed (yeh right) and the belt is going same speed in reverse, he's not thinking of it correctly - the plane is at lightspeed, not stationary.
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John
Member
Registered: 30th Jun 03
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The worst bit about this svm is the fact you still think you are 100% correct when everybody reading this knows otherwise.
I can't wait till it clicks how stupid you have been.
You'll be kicking yourself.
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Paul_J
Member
Registered: 6th Jun 02
Location: London
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by SVM 286
If you are stood on the runway next to the conveyor belt the plane would maintain it's position from your standpoint wouldn't it?
No thats completely wrong.
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Brett
Premium Member
Registered: 16th Dec 02
Location: Manchester
User status: Offline
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You walk into a gym.
You walk over to the treadmill and stand on it with your rollerskates on that you brought in your bag.
You then start the treadmill, call it 10mph (but this is irrelevant).
The belt will move and you will stay still as your wheels are "free-wheeling".
Now, your friend pushes your back forwards (he is the jet engine). You will move forward.
You can turn the speed of the treadmill up to a million mph if you like, you will still move forwards.
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SVM 286
Member
Registered: 13th Feb 05
Location: pain
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quote:
Originally posted by Sxi04
you are now telling me that the plane is moving at speed yet it is stationary? please please please say that i am wrong
YES in relation to the belt not the gound.
Do you understand the principle of the belt travelling at the same speed as the plane but in the opposite direction?
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Paul_J
Member
Registered: 6th Jun 02
Location: London
User status: Offline
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svn if you pushed a box on wheels with a force of 10 NM forwards. the box would move forwards correct?
now if that box was sat on a conveyor belt going towards you, and you pushed the box all the way along the belt to the other end, you could do that yes?
Replace yourself with the thrust of the engine and ta da.
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Jamie
Member
Registered: 1st Apr 02
Location: Aberdeen
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shite
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Paul_J
Member
Registered: 6th Jun 02
Location: London
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by SVM 286
Do you understand the principle of the belt travelling at the same speed as the plane but in the opposite direction?
Do you understand the princible that the belt travelling opposite direction to the plane IS NOT stopping the plane move forward? since the force behind the plane (thrust) is far far greater than the force stopping it.
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Mase
Premium Member
Registered: 16th Sep 01
Location: Derbyshire
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by SVM 286
quote:
Originally posted by Sxi04
you are now telling me that the plane is moving at speed yet it is stationary? please please please say that i am wrong
YES in relation to the belt not the gound.
Do you understand the principle of the belt travelling at the same speed as the plane but in the opposite direction?
yes, but thats the cruical point. the plane is travelling at a speed, therefore there is airflow over the wings, therefore as it accelerates up to a speed, the lift will be enough to make the plane take off, while at the same time the wheels are going like the clappers as they are travelling at twice the speed of the plane...
Mase
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J da Silva
Member
Registered: 10th Apr 03
Location: The FACTory
User status: Offline
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I said I would admit if I think I am wrong,and I am. When I was in the thread earlier in the day,I was doing my work accounts and didn't really think it through much.
Just got home from football and I played the scenario through in my head and I think it will take off, it wouldn't take off if the wheels were driven,but as they freewheel,they don't affect it.
I'd still love to see it done though
[Edited on 24-05-2006 by Jizinho Silva 10]
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dave17
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Registered: 3rd Sep 02
Location: Greater London
User status: Offline
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I think people may be thinking of them as 'regular' wheels, like a car for example.
These wheels do not contain any 'power' they are merely a part for the plane to be mobile while on the ground.
You could have the plane engines OFF, and the treadmill be going alone at 500mph and the plane would just stay in the SAME spot, would not move backwards.
As soon as the plane engines are turned on, it will make its way down the belt, no matter how fast it is travelling
I have seen the light, but also understand the confusion due to the way the question is worded.
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Paul_J
Member
Registered: 6th Jun 02
Location: London
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by dave17
I think people may be thinking of them as 'regular' wheels, like a car for example.
These wheels do not contain any 'power' they are merely a part for the plane to be mobile while on the ground.
You could have the plane engines OFF, and the treadmill be going alone at 500mph and the plane would just stay in the SAME spot, would not move backwards.
As soon as the plane engines are turned on, it will make its way down the belt, no matter how fast it is travelling
I have seen the light, but also understand the confusion due to the way the question is worded.
Well - you'd need some force to hold it there as otherwise the slight resistance from the wheels etc would push it backwards - but the thrust can definately overcome the slight resistance.
when svn says the plane is doing 100 mph - it is doing just that 100 mph, not stationary on the spot. The conveyour can be whizzing along at 100 mph going backwards but it won't stop the plane going forwards as the wheels 'freewheel' thus no real resistance.
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SVM 286
Member
Registered: 13th Feb 05
Location: pain
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by Ian
OK consider this.
The planes wheels freewheel, and therefore don't effect forward or backward motion. In fact the only part which the wheels are playing is that they are offering exactly the same force upwards as gravity is offering downwards, therefore the plane doesn't fall on its belly but instead stands a few feet off the ground.
Change the wheel arranagement for something that would make the plane hover.
Same relation between forward and backward motion - none.
Same relation between gravity and holding the plane up - equal.
Now in the hovering craft, apply forward thrust to achieve air speed in one direction.
Now start moving the ground - your hoving craft doesn't care - the ground does not effect the plane.
The plane is free to move thus free to produce lift and take off.
The belt doesn't matter. Forget about the belt.
No Ian, it's the wheels that don't matter.
The entire premise is that both belt and craft travel at the same speed.
Frictional qualities and wheels etc etc are utterly redundant as the CRAFT and BELT travel atthe SAME speed.
If the plane was hovering, of course it could make progress.
That is the whole point.
Try to forget about the physics of a moving belt and a set of free wheels.
The imperative is that a factor opposing the craft, is in equilibrium to it's own generated force.
This will prevent the vehicle from progressing from a geographical stand point.
The same happens in air.
If a craft travelling at 200 mph hits 200 mph head winds the craft makes no progress.
It hovers so to speak the same way a Kestrel does when it equalises it's speed against a head wind when eyeing prey.
I realy hope this has clarified the point, and apologise for the long winded nature of my reply.
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Paul_J
Member
Registered: 6th Jun 02
Location: London
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by SVM 286
The imperative is that a factor opposing the craft, is in equilibrium to it's own generated force.
This will prevent the vehicle from progressing from a geographical stand point.
Where the factor that is supplying an equal force to the thrust? 
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SVM 286
Member
Registered: 13th Feb 05
Location: pain
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul_J
quote:
Originally posted by DarrenGSi
When the plane is moving at 100 mph it's moving at 100 mph. The belt is whacking around at 100 mph the opposite way but its not stopping the plane since the wheels are just spinning underneathe it.
Bingo
So when SVN says it can do lightspeed (yeh right) and the belt is going same speed in reverse, he's not thinking of it correctly - the plane is at lightspeed, not stationary.
It's geographically stationary Paul.
It makes no physical headway through the surrounding air and as such attains no ground speed.
Because of this it cannot attain lift and cannot take off.
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DarrenGSi
Member
Registered: 11th Jul 05
Location: East Ayrshire Drives: Civic Jordan 381
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by SVM 286
quote:
Originally posted by Sxi04
you are now telling me that the plane is moving at speed yet it is stationary? please please please say that i am wrong
YES in relation to the belt not the gound.
Do you understand the principle of the belt travelling at the same speed as the plane but in the opposite direction?
remember the belt is travelling the same speed as the plane NOT the wheels which are just going whichever way the belts going
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SVM 286
Member
Registered: 13th Feb 05
Location: pain
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul_J
quote:
Originally posted by SVM 286
If you are stood on the runway next to the conveyor belt the plane would maintain it's position from your standpoint wouldn't it?
No thats completely wrong.
Why is that wrong Paul?
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Paul_J
Member
Registered: 6th Jun 02
Location: London
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul_J
quote:
Originally posted by SVM 286
The imperative is that a factor opposing the craft, is in equilibrium to it's own generated force.
This will prevent the vehicle from progressing from a geographical stand point.
Where the factor that is supplying an equal force to the thrust?
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Paul_J
Member
Registered: 6th Jun 02
Location: London
User status: Offline
|
quote:
Originally posted by Paul_J
quote:
Originally posted by Paul_J
quote:
Originally posted by SVM 286
The imperative is that a factor opposing the craft, is in equilibrium to it's own generated force.
This will prevent the vehicle from progressing from a geographical stand point.
Where the factor that is supplying an equal force to the thrust?
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