Ben G
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Registered: 12th Jan 07
Location: Essex
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Ok, here's Anjem Choudary. He actually needs to die.
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MoesTavern
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Registered: 19th Jul 07
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quote:
Originally posted by Cavey
Also, if you're looking to the huffingtonpost for backup then you're probably losing the arguement, it's a shocking website
[Edited on 14-01-2015 by Cavey]
It's on Sky News too.
I'm not looking for backup, just found it ironic. #JeSuisCharlie indeed.
[Edited on 15-01-2015 by MoesTavern]
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Balling
Premium Member
Registered: 7th Apr 04
Location: Denmark
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quote:
Originally posted by MoesTavern
Discrimination in the sense it appears that Muslims are being specifically targeted, to the exclusion of other minorities. I'm not aware that this is an incorrect usage of the term?
Targeted with criticism and humour. Making fun of people is not discrimination. It's an incorrect usage of the term.
quote:
Originally posted by MoesTavern
I think that Charlie Hebdo setting out to provoke an already disaffected and marginalized minority under the guise of free speech could be more of a talking point, that's all.
Marginalised minority? Are you talking about muslims in general? If so, then you're talking about 25% of the worlds population. Hardly a marginalised minority.
quote:
Originally posted by MoesTavern
Also, you keep referring to their output as "funny pictures" as if being offended by them is something to be ridiculed. Isn't that rather narrow minded and dismissive of you? Who are you to say what's offensive, and to whom?
I'm not pointing fingers at anyone for being offended by jokes. I don't think that somebody being offended is a valid reason to censor a cartoon.
I'm very unclear what your point is here.
Are you trying to advocate censorship?
Are you trying to say Charlie Hebdo had it coming?
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Balling
Premium Member
Registered: 7th Apr 04
Location: Denmark
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by MoesTavern
Thoughts on this, Balling?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/14/dieudonne-trial-charlie-hebdo_n_6472480.html
Thoughts on what part of it? That article seems to be about fifty different things.
If you're on about the headline, then the guy broke the law, apparently, and is to stand trial. What of it?
If you're trying to make an analogy here, that we're defending free speech and this guy is being persecuted for exercising that right, then I can only hope that you do indeed see the difference between criticising a group and encouraging to acts of violence against a group.
Again, I need clarification on what your point is as you seem pretty vague on that.
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Steve
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Registered: 30th Mar 02
Location: Worcestershire Drives: Defender
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Its just the classic muslim train of thought, a lot of them them think to even some small degree the murders are ok, because someone had to audacity to mock a totally made up fictional character. Might not openly say it, but amongst themselves they will. I think moestaverns comments and thoughts are fairly typical of the average Muslim, they don't really surprise me.
Might kill someone for taking the piss out of mickey mouse. Probably justified imo.
[Edited on 15-01-2015 by Steve]
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MoesTavern
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Registered: 19th Jul 07
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Originally posted by Balling
Targeted with criticism and humour. Making fun of people is not discrimination. It's an incorrect usage of the term.quote:
I don't understand why you're so resistant to the term being used in this context. Making fun of one group specifically rather than others is discriminating against that specific group, is it not? And what does the nature of the targeting have to do with it?
Originally posted by Balling
Marginalised minority? Are you talking about muslims in general? If so, then you're talking about 25% of the worlds population. Hardly a marginalised minority.quote:
French Muslims. Who are largely a poor, immigrant section of French society. I'd hardly be talking about Muslims in general, would I? As you say there are rather a lot of them.
Originally posted by Balling
I'm not pointing fingers at anyone for being offended by jokes. I don't think that somebody being offended is a valid reason to censor a cartoon.
I'm very unclear what your point is here.
Are you trying to advocate censorship?
Are you trying to say Charlie Hebdo had it coming?
I believe in censorship in certain situations depending on the context, yes. I realise that's not very trendy at the minute but anyway.
My point (such as it is) is that while I abhor the thought of somebody being killed over a cartoon, I also realise that there are many people out there who may not feel the same way. As such provoking these people is not a sensible idea. The consequences of your actions need to be considered, whether or not you agree that such consequences should occur. (And no, that's not the same as saying they had it coming)
I also have a problem with #JeSuisCharlie itself, as (in my opinion, of course) Charlie Hebdo is a shitty rag filled with questionable material, and not worthy of being held up as an example of free speech.
[Edited on 15-01-2015 by MoesTavern]
[Edited on 15-01-2015 by MoesTavern]
[Edited on 15-01-2015 by MoesTavern]
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MoesTavern
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Registered: 19th Jul 07
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by Balling
quote:
Originally posted by MoesTavern
Thoughts on this, Balling?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/14/dieudonne-trial-charlie-hebdo_n_6472480.html
Thoughts on what part of it? That article seems to be about fifty different things.
If you're on about the headline, then the guy broke the law, apparently, and is to stand trial. What of it?
If you're trying to make an analogy here, that we're defending free speech and this guy is being persecuted for exercising that right, then I can only hope that you do indeed see the difference between criticising a group and encouraging to acts of violence against a group.
Again, I need clarification on what your point is as you seem pretty vague on that.
I just wondered if you agreed with the arrest, that's all.
I'm just pointing out the hypocritical nature of marching in favour of free speech then arresting a comedian for posting an 'offensive message' on his own Facebook wall. Is it only free speech for certain people and certain ideas?
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Balling
Premium Member
Registered: 7th Apr 04
Location: Denmark
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by MoesTavern
Making fun of one group specifically rather than others is discriminating against that specific group, is it not?
It's not, no. Look up the word.
quote:
Originally posted by MoesTavern
French Muslims. Who are largely a poor, immigrant section of French society. I'd hardly be talking about Muslims in general, would I? As you say there are rather a lot of them.
I'm not aware that Charlie Hebdo has been targeting French muslims specifically, rather muslim extremists in general. Either way, whether their humour is in good taste is beside the point.
quote:
Originally posted by MoesTavern
I believe in censorship in certain situations depending on the context, yes. I realise that's not very trendy at the minute but anyway.
And who are to determine what should be censored?
Once you start agreeing to censorship you're on a slippery slope leading to a government taking control of basic things, like what you're allowed to see on the internet.
There's a reason why the UK and your recent pornography laws is the laughing stock of the rest of the developed world.
quote:
Originally posted by MoesTavern
My point (such as it is) is that while I abhor the thought of somebody being killed over a cartoon, I also realise that there are many people out there who may not feel the same way. As such provoking these people is not a sensible idea. The consequences of your actions need to be considered, whether or not you agree that such consequences should occur. (And no, that's not the same as saying they had it coming)
If you're not saying they shouldn't have made provoking drawings and you don't think they had it coming, what are you saying exactly? Because it reads that way to me.
You wouldn't have done the same? That's fine. Free speech isn't about agreeing with everybody. It's about not getting killed by the people that disagree with you.
The fact that you're trying to play down these killings is shameful and distasteful.
quote:
Originally posted by MoesTavern
I also have a problem with #JeSuisCharlie itself, as (in my opinion, of course) Charlie Hebdo is a shitty rag filled with questionable material, and not worthy of being held up as an example of free speech.
If you choose to interpret "Je suis Charlie" as "I agree with everything they've ever said, drawn or written" that's on you. That's not what is meant by it, though. You can look that up as well.
If you don't think Charlie Hebdo is worthy of the attention they're getting, you'll have to take that up with the people behind the killing of 12 of their employees.
Again, it does sound like you do indeed think that the content of the magazine is a mitigating circumstance in the killings, which is kind of sad.
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Balling
Premium Member
Registered: 7th Apr 04
Location: Denmark
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by MoesTavern
I'm just pointing out the hypocritical nature of marching in favour of free speech then arresting a comedian for posting an 'offensive message' on his own Facebook wall. Is it only free speech for certain people and certain ideas?
To repeat myself, I can only hope that you do indeed see the difference between criticising a group and encouraging to acts of violence against a group.
If you threaten with or encourage people to acts of violence and crime, that's against the law.
I thought that was common sense.
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JonnyJ
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Registered: 23rd Sep 05
Location: Scotchland
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quote:
Originally posted by Balling
quote:
Originally posted by MoesTavern
I'm just pointing out the hypocritical nature of marching in favour of free speech then arresting a comedian for posting an 'offensive message' on his own Facebook wall. Is it only free speech for certain people and certain ideas?
To repeat myself, I can only hope that you do indeed see the difference between criticising a group and encouraging to acts of violence against a group.
If you threaten with or encourage people to acts of violence and crime, that's against the law.
I thought that was common sense.
I havent read too much on it but i dont think he incited violence did he? He posted a comment that was distasteful, saying he felt like Charlie Coulibaly, playing on the Je Suis Charlie line, but im not sure any of it encouraged violence/crime and regardless of his dodgy past, that post is what he was arrested for.
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MoesTavern
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Registered: 19th Jul 07
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by Balling
quote:
Originally posted by MoesTavern
I'm just pointing out the hypocritical nature of marching in favour of free speech then arresting a comedian for posting an 'offensive message' on his own Facebook wall. Is it only free speech for certain people and certain ideas?
To repeat myself, I can only hope that you do indeed see the difference between criticising a group and encouraging to acts of violence against a group.
If you threaten with or encourage people to acts of violence and crime, that's against the law.
I thought that was common sense.
How is posting an offensive comment encouraging acts of violence? And no, I'm not seeing a difference here, is there somewhere I can look this up, too?
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Balling
Premium Member
Registered: 7th Apr 04
Location: Denmark
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by MoesTavern
How is posting an offensive comment encouraging acts of violence? And no, I'm not seeing a difference here, is there somewhere I can look this up, too?
He was arrested for "justifying terrorism" not for offending someone.
I'll try to explain.
You're allowed to have and share any opinion on any person or thing.
You're not, however, allowed to threaten with or encourage to acts of crime.
Again, this is beside the point and out of context. Yet you're somehow trying to use this arrest as an argument against Charlie Hebdo and the people defending free speech.
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MoesTavern
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Registered: 19th Jul 07
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by Balling
quote:
Originally posted by MoesTavern
Making fun of one group specifically rather than others is discriminating against that specific group, is it not?
It's not, no. Look up the word. quote:
 ok
quote:
Originally posted by MoesTavern
I believe in censorship in certain situations depending on the context, yes. I realise that's not very trendy at the minute but anyway.
And who are to determine what should be censored?
Once you start agreeing to censorship you're on a slippery slope leading to a government taking control of basic things, like what you're allowed to see on the internet.
There's a reason why the UK and your recent pornography laws is the laughing stock of the rest of the developed world. quote:
It's not up to me is it? It's up to the respective governments. You're incredibly patronising, I don't need a lecture on what censorship entails thanks.
quote:
Originally posted by MoesTavern
My point (such as it is) is that while I abhor the thought of somebody being killed over a cartoon, I also realise that there are many people out there who may not feel the same way. As such provoking these people is not a sensible idea. The consequences of your actions need to be considered, whether or not you agree that such consequences should occur. (And no, that's not the same as saying they had it coming)
If you're not saying they shouldn't have made provoking drawings and you don't think they had it coming, what are you saying exactly? Because it reads that way to me.
You wouldn't have done the same? That's fine. Free speech isn't about agreeing with everybody. It's about not getting killed by the people that disagree with you.
The fact that you're trying to play down these killings is shameful and distasteful.quote:
I can't explain myself any clearer. if you still believe I'm trying to play down these killings I don't know what else to say. All I was saying was freedom of speech brings with it certain responsibilities and considerations, which you seem completely unwilling to countenance for some reason.
quote:
Originally posted by MoesTavern
I also have a problem with #JeSuisCharlie itself, as (in my opinion, of course) Charlie Hebdo is a shitty rag filled with questionable material, and not worthy of being held up as an example of free speech.
If you choose to interpret "Je suis Charlie" as "I agree with everything they've ever said, drawn or written" that's on you. That's not what is meant by it, though. You can look that up as well.
If you don't think Charlie Hebdo is worthy of the attention they're getting, you'll have to take that up with the people behind the killing of 12 of their employees.
Again, it does sound like you do indeed think that the content of the magazine is a mitigating circumstance in the killings, which is kind of sad.
I take JeSuisCharlie as "I endorse Charlie Hebdo" How can you support what something stands for without supporting the content itself?
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GB123
Premium Member
Registered: 21st Nov 11
Location: Kent
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by MoesTavern
Charlie Hebdo is a shitty rag filled with questionable material, and not worthy of being held up as an example of free speech.
Out of interest, can you speak/read French?
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GB123
Premium Member
Registered: 21st Nov 11
Location: Kent
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by MoesTavern
How can you support what something stands for without supporting the content itself?
Very easily actually.
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andy1868
Member
Registered: 22nd Jun 06
Location: Burscough, Lancashire
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I may not agree with what you're saying but i'll defend to the death your right to say it
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MoesTavern
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Registered: 19th Jul 07
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quote:
Originally posted by GB123
quote:
Originally posted by MoesTavern
Charlie Hebdo is a shitty rag filled with questionable material, and not worthy of being held up as an example of free speech.
Out of interest, can you speak/read French?
To a very basic level, why?
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Gary
Premium Member
Registered: 22nd Nov 06
Location: West Yorkshire
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by andy1868
I may not agree with what you're saying but i'll defend to the death your right to say it
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GB123
Premium Member
Registered: 21st Nov 11
Location: Kent
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by MoesTavern
quote:
Originally posted by GB123
quote:
Originally posted by MoesTavern
Charlie Hebdo is a shitty rag filled with questionable material, and not worthy of being held up as an example of free speech.
Out of interest, can you speak/read French?
To a very basic level, why?
Just wondered how you can judge/form such a strong opinion of something without actually reading it.
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MoesTavern
Member
Registered: 19th Jul 07
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by GB123
quote:
Originally posted by MoesTavern
quote:
Originally posted by GB123
quote:
Originally posted by MoesTavern
Charlie Hebdo is a shitty rag filled with questionable material, and not worthy of being held up as an example of free speech.
Out of interest, can you speak/read French?
To a very basic level, why?
Just wondered how you can judge/form such a strong opinion of something without actually reading it.
By reading articles and opinion pieces describing and translating the content.
Also, I don't believe fluency in French is necessary to find a cartoon of a naked Mohammed bent over on all fours with a star coming out of his anus (for example) distasteful.
[Edited on 15-01-2015 by MoesTavern]
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GB123
Premium Member
Registered: 21st Nov 11
Location: Kent
User status: Offline
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Care to share any?
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MoesTavern
Member
Registered: 19th Jul 07
User status: Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by GB123
Care to share any?
Sure
http://www.hoodedutilitarian.com/2015/01/in-the-wake-of-charlie-hebdo-free-speech-does-not-mean-freedom-from-criticism/
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/01/09/solidarity-charlie-hebdo-cartoons/
http://posthypnotic.randomstatic.net/charliehebdo/Charlie_Hebdo_article%2011.htm
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Gary
Premium Member
Registered: 22nd Nov 06
Location: West Yorkshire
User status: Offline
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Moestavern is what's wrong with the world. Bet he'd go home and cry if someone called him a wanker.
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GB123
Premium Member
Registered: 21st Nov 11
Location: Kent
User status: Offline
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Somebody's rehashed opinions on what are at best, some questionable websites, doesn't really constitute an unbiased argument that allows you to form your own opinions rather than jump on the back of somebody else's, but never mind.
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Steve
Premium Member
Registered: 30th Mar 02
Location: Worcestershire Drives: Defender
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Moestavern isn't what's wrong with the world. Humans inability to embrace any concept of modern realism and intelligence, living their lives by a set of ancient fiction and made up text, believing said fiction so much so they are willing to kill other human beings, is what is wrong with the world.
[Edited on 15-01-2015 by Steve]
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