drunkenfool
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Registered: 7th Feb 03
Location: Hereford Drives: Audi R8 V8
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Anyone here got any fitted to their houses? We use a ridiculous amount of energy here with the koi pond, two tropical marine tanks running 24/7, as well as computers, tvs etc etc. and we were thinking about installing a large PV solar array. I've seen the ads for free panels and free electricity if you 'rent' out your roofspace for 25 years, and I also know that it would make better financial sense to buy them ourselves but right at the moment the initial outlay is just too much.
So, has anyone got any first hand experience with them?
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John_C
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Registered: 5th Mar 03
Location: South east, Bromley
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have you worked out what paying for them outright would cost as opposed to just renting the roof and getting just the leccy reduced?
A 2kw array will yield around £900 a yr inc all the feed in benefits
The leccy saving may only be around £100 a year. The installer gets the feed in benefits.
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/free-solar-panels
maybe still worth while getting a loan and doing it or adding cost to mortgage.
I want a 2kw installed but want to move house fairly soon so sitting on the fence at the mo. 4KW array would be the way to go as you get more leccy and can feedback more onto grid and get paid.
How much do you use? I only use around 2000kw a yr
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whitter45
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Registered: 15th Nov 02
Location: Norton
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need to calculate your consumption rate, whether you can feed the grid if your over generating and also any grants or interest free loans you can get hold of
the technology is getting better but your still looking at 10+ year paybacks if you buy outright with no grants etc
I would personally wait as the technology keeps on getting better and better
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drunkenfool
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Registered: 7th Feb 03
Location: Hereford Drives: Audi R8 V8
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If it were my house then I would buy them myself but it's my mum's house and she thinks she may move from here in the next 5-10 years when she retires so is more interested in the free electricity at the moment. I've tried to explain to her that the returns from the panels are greater than the interest rates of a mortgage so it would almost be like a financial investment, but she just wants the free ones lol
I'll have to ask her of our exact usage but I wouldn't be surprised if we used 20kwh a day. The koi pond outside has two pumps at around 100w each, the marine tank in the garage has a 300w heater that is used quite often due to being in the garage, the one in the house isn't quite as bad but if it's below 24degrees then theres 600w of heat going into that, and above 26degrees there 750w of cooling going in, as well as about 150w of pumps on 24/7 and 180w of LED lights on for about 10 hours a day. I also work from home so have a computer on for maybe 18 hours a day, then TV, music etc. etc. Even with LED light bulbs in the whole of downstairs, we still use loooads of energy 
[Edited on 29-09-2010 by drunkenfool]
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dannymccann
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Registered: 9th Aug 06
Location: Doddington, Lincolnshire
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There is a BIG thread over here on MSE
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Bart
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Registered: 19th Aug 02
Location: Midsomer Norton, Bristol Avon
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drunkenfool, that sounds about right.
IVe just checked out statement and we're averaging around 500kWh per month which is about 16 per day.
Looking online (MSE), they only appear to claim to save you around £100 a year? Or have I misread that?
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John_C
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Registered: 5th Mar 03
Location: South east, Bromley
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It may be worth just switching to a more competitive utility.
My annual bill for both gas and electric is £370. I can change in Nov and together with cheapest deal (currently scottish power) and then use quidco for cash back (currently £110).
My annual bill will then only be £260 for both
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drunkenfool
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Registered: 7th Feb 03
Location: Hereford Drives: Audi R8 V8
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I've just been doing a bit more reading on these free schemes and it really doesn't make sense to let another company reap all the benefits when the savings would work out cheaper than putting the panel price on the mortgage. Even if technologies do improve, the money from the government is guaranteed for 25 years and it's that money that is more of a benefit than the actual energy savings. I think I need to have another word with my mum about this lol
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drunkenfool
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Registered: 7th Feb 03
Location: Hereford Drives: Audi R8 V8
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Using the calculator here;
http://www.solarguide.co.uk/solar-pv-calculator#bestresult
and basing it on a 6x4m array...
Investment in 3.33kWp System: £ 15,040.41
First Year: Income from Feed-In Generation Tariff @ 41.30p/kWh: £ 1,133.53
Income from exporting energy @ 3.00p/kWh: £ 20.58
Electricity Saving: £ 286.13
Total Benefit: £ 1,440.25
Payback Time: 8y 6m
Total Profit Over 25 years: £ 51,294.56
13.64 % per year (5.94% AER)
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ed
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Registered: 10th Sep 03
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How about using solar heating for hot water to reduce your bills that way?
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drunkenfool
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Registered: 7th Feb 03
Location: Hereford Drives: Audi R8 V8
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I've booked an appointment for a local company to come and do a survey on Monday evening, with a no obligation quote. It will be interesting to see how it goes!
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Jules S
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Registered: 24th Dec 03
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I wouldn't do it tbh.
The gov funded schemes get sucked up very quickly by schools etc and I'll wager they will all of disappeared now.
I'm also not sure how easy it is to feed back into the grid. You might want to look into that a hell of a lot more before seeing a salesman 
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John
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Registered: 30th Jun 03
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Shouldn't run shitty fish tanks and there wouldn't be a problem.
Look sooooo tacky in 99% of houses.
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drunkenfool
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Registered: 7th Feb 03
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quote:
Originally posted by John
Shouldn't run shitty fish tanks and there wouldn't be a problem.
Look sooooo tacky in 99% of houses.
Thanks for the constructive comments. I'm quite happy with my fish tank
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drunkenfool
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Registered: 7th Feb 03
Location: Hereford Drives: Audi R8 V8
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quote:
Originally posted by Jules S
I wouldn't do it tbh.
The gov funded schemes get sucked up very quickly by schools etc and I'll wager they will all of disappeared now.
I'm also not sure how easy it is to feed back into the grid. You might want to look into that a hell of a lot more before seeing a salesman
I've done a lot of research about the technology and I understand that PV solar generation isn't all that efficient and that there are better ways to reduce the energy bill, but it's the new feed in tarrif scheme by the government that has made it interesting - more of an investment than anything else. They will pay about 43p for every kwh generated, if you use it or not, and what you don't use can be sold back to the grid for about 3p for kwh. The money back from the government in comparison to the outlay of the panels will give about 10% tax-free interest on your investment which is much better than an ISA, plus you get to help the planet a bit too!
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Jules S
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Registered: 24th Dec 03
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quote:
Originally posted by drunkenfool
quote:
Originally posted by Jules S
I wouldn't do it tbh.
The gov funded schemes get sucked up very quickly by schools etc and I'll wager they will all of disappeared now.
I'm also not sure how easy it is to feed back into the grid. You might want to look into that a hell of a lot more before seeing a salesman
I've done a lot of research about the technology and I understand that PV solar generation isn't all that efficient and that there are better ways to reduce the energy bill, but it's the new feed in tarrif scheme by the government that has made it interesting - more of an investment than anything else. They will pay about 43p for every kwh generated, if you use it or not, and what you don't use can be sold back to the grid for about 3p for kwh. The money back from the government in comparison to the outlay of the panels will give about 10% tax-free interest on your investment which is much better than an ISA, plus you get to help the planet a bit too!
I'm not sure the government have a say in feedback/payback matters. The last job I did that had proposed renewable electric was scuppered by the shippers.
I can't recall the £ offered on a kwh back then, but the hardware to actually put any electric back into the grid (and the actual time of day it was delivered - offpeak) didn't see a payback in 60 years...hence we dumped the idea.
As for 43p for every kwh generated, I doubt that will come to fruition esp if you don't use it. How the hell would anybody be able to genuinely measure that?
Personally I would wait 5 years or so. I read a paper a few months back (a document - not the Sun) that predicited PV's cost will drop to less than aluminium foil and be completely translucent so you could fit them like film to south facing windows.
I quite like that idea, slight shading and power generated 
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whitter45
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Registered: 15th Nov 02
Location: Norton
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agree payback/feedback will be stipulated by OFGEM and the suppliers union
Government have no say - they just regulate it
CLG are also looking at this at present
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drunkenfool
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Registered: 7th Feb 03
Location: Hereford Drives: Audi R8 V8
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Jules, the 41.3p per kwh generated is definitely correct and is guaranteed for 25 years from April 2010. We've had the site survey and our roof is 32 degrees from horizontal and 3 degrees off due south so is basically perfect for solar, and it's big enough to have a 3.6kwp system.
I understand that the technology will improve and get cheaper but the main point right now is that it's not the money saved from the energy produced that is the main benefit, but the much higher payback that is coming from the energy companies paying you 41.3p per khw produced.
We should be getting the actual figures in the post in the next couple of days but it will be something like a £15k investment which will pay back about £1200 a year, tax free, and guaranteed for 25 years.
One very interesting point though is that this 41.3p per kwh from the energy companies is basically being subsidised by the average bill payer if they have solar or not, so basically if you aren't one of the people with the panels receiving the Feed In Tarrif, then you are effectively paying for those people that are.
[Edited on 05-10-2010 by drunkenfool]
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dannymccann
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Registered: 9th Aug 06
Location: Doddington, Lincolnshire
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Don't see why the government doesnt invest that amount of money (41.3p/kwh is hige compared to the cost of a normal kwh from gas or coal, 10p???) in developing these new panels Jules is saying about and then EVERYONE will have them, government fulfills their stupid green target and everyone can use all the leccy they want for free
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drunkenfool
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Registered: 7th Feb 03
Location: Hereford Drives: Audi R8 V8
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The money comes from the electricity companies not the government. EDIT- but yes, that would be a good idea in theory!
[Edited on 06-10-2010 by drunkenfool]
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Jules S
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Registered: 24th Dec 03
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I guess times have changed....or it's a different ball game for public buildings as opposed to private.
We strive to achieve all of our buildings as being BREEAM 'very good' at the very least, and as a council if we could get some payback out of term time in schools I'm pretty sure a mechanical engineer would have suggested this payback to me before now.
I'll ask the question about PV's next time I meet the M&E guys we are using on the project im running atm.
Lets see then
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Simon
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Registered: 24th Apr 03
Location: Oxfordshire
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Bloody BREEAM! We've just completed a building that had to get an 'excellent' rating at design and post construction stages as part of the planning conditions. It's such a crap box ticking exercise
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Jules S
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Registered: 24th Dec 03
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quote:
Originally posted by Simon
Bloody BREEAM! We've just completed a building that had to get an 'excellent' rating at design and post construction stages as part of the planning conditions. It's such a crap box ticking exercise
Indeed,
We estimate it's about 5-7% added cost for sweet fuck all.
But like you said, it's a box ticking exercise...and if you get 3 points for PV's?
We missed the consultation period on a project (so missed all of those lovely consultation points  ) and still got very good.
The result (with biomass) was a A4 certificate which now resides in an office. No user knows anything about the building, they simply ignore all of the gaff stuff we had to display.
Hey ho, tax money wasted. Again.
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whitter45
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Registered: 15th Nov 02
Location: Norton
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quote:
Originally posted by drunkenfool
Jules, the 41.3p per kwh generated is definitely correct and is guaranteed for 25 years from April 2010. We've had the site survey and our roof is 32 degrees from horizontal and 3 degrees off due south so is basically perfect for solar, and it's big enough to have a 3.6kwp system.
I understand that the technology will improve and get cheaper but the main point right now is that it's not the money saved from the energy produced that is the main benefit, but the much higher payback that is coming from the energy companies paying you 41.3p per khw produced.
We should be getting the actual figures in the post in the next couple of days but it will be something like a £15k investment which will pay back about £1200 a year, tax free, and guaranteed for 25 years.
One very interesting point though is that this 41.3p per kwh from the energy companies is basically being subsidised by the average bill payer if they have solar or not, so basically if you aren't one of the people with the panels receiving the Feed In Tarrif, then you are effectively paying for those people that are.
[Edited on 05-10-2010 by drunkenfool]
The money is generated by the suppliers i,e you see it on your bill as a green energy tax. basically as of april 2010 the feed tariff is £0.41/KWH and is paid to the generator regardless of what they do with it
Therefore if you use the energy you use less of the grid and they pay you for it. If you dont use it you can feed it back to the grid at £0.12 thus potnetially giving you £0.53/KWH generated
Drawback are obviously the demand is generated during the day so you still use grid energy at night. Also I would advise staying away from funded projects as basically the project is paid out of the generation tariff. If you can stump up the money its worth it and work on 4k/KW for supply and installation
Please also note the £0.41 generation tariff is fixed for 25 years but as the technology becomes more wide spread this will drop. So basically if you act early you will get the £0.41 for 25 years regardless of how popular it becomes
If you have the cash its worth an invetsment. Please also remember that if you see your neighbour with solar panels you will be paying for their generation tariff income in your energy bill lol
I work in commerical industry and I met a company yesterday who I am potentilally setting up a framework agreement with - they are called Wirsol and I am looking for them to install the kit on my house also as they do both domestic to Solar parks up to 20MWH
For information on feed/generation tariffs visit
http://www.solarchoice.uk.com/feedintariff.php
Also if you buying a new house do not specify in the spec and do it afer its built as the FIT is lower on a new build rather than retrofit but consider cost of scaffolding etc
Hope this helps
[Edited on 14-10-2010 by whitter45]
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whitter45
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Registered: 15th Nov 02
Location: Norton
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quote:
Originally posted by Jules S
quote:
Originally posted by Simon
Bloody BREEAM! We've just completed a building that had to get an 'excellent' rating at design and post construction stages as part of the planning conditions. It's such a crap box ticking exercise
Indeed,
We estimate it's about 5-7% added cost for sweet fuck all.
But like you said, it's a box ticking exercise...and if you get 3 points for PV's?
We missed the consultation period on a project (so missed all of those lovely consultation points ) and still got very good.
The result (with biomass) was a A4 certificate which now resides in an office. No user knows anything about the building, they simply ignore all of the gaff stuff we had to display.
Hey ho, tax money wasted. Again.
I think its more important to do post occupancy surveys as the majority of buildings I survey never operate to design spec due to poor commmisioning or end user disregard for energy
[Edited on 14-10-2010 by whitter45]
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