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Author The outcome of my speeding.. *update 24/12/05*
Rebrabuk
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Registered: 28th Mar 04
Location: North East
User status: Offline
2nd Dec 05 at 20:14   View User's Profile U2U Member Reply With Quote

..As some of you are aware, i was zapped speeding back in March on my way home from a VVOC meet in the North East. Well over the past 9 months i've been fighting this despite much criticism from certain people and also much support from a few other people. I think both groups of people will be suprised with the outcome for different reasons. Whilst i myself am suprised, it is for very different reasons and does not come close to how angry i am...

Thanks everyone for their support and no grudges held against those who weren't so supportive.. :thumbs_up :tounge_sm

A 'brief summary' of todays proceedings...

quote:

Right, this is a bit long winded, but makes for interesting bed time reading. To find out the punishment, check out the final few paragraphs.

Well hearing was set for 12noon. Arrived in court at 9am and observed some other trials until 11:30 when i moved to my own court room to await my call. Trial ahead of me was running late as the mags took 1 and a half hours to deside the defendants fate. He was charged with 2 offences and was found not guilty of the first but convicted of the second and hit with a whopping 550 costs. (non motoring offence but my heart sank anyway when i heard his costs being announced)

Anyway, on to my trial and it's now after 10pm... The clerk and CPS asked to have a word with me outside in private before we began. I obliged.

Clerk commented that i had mentioned in my statement that i felt that i should've been cautioned and asked if i was still intending to run that line of defence. I responded "i don't think so". She then moved on to the discrepancy that i raised at PTR regarding non service of any valid evidence and asked if the CPS had rectified this matter. I said i'd rather not comment any further until we go in for trial. She then said that it could be in my favour to raise the issue there and then as if that was the case, then the CPS had no evidence to proceed with. CPS guy then butted in and said that he had been contacted by my solicitor last week and my solicitor had stated that i was in possession of photographs but not valid ones. I stated that i had received photograhs back in April when i requested them, however they were not valid as evidence of a speeding offence. I explained that the photographs were invalid as evidence as they had the TIMEOUT error message on them.

CPS said that they were not in a position to carry on with the trial today as they were not aware of the discrepancy with the photographs. However, i then pointed out that i had raised the issue at PTR and asked him to refer to the back of his piece of paper where the previous prosecutor who was at the PTR had written the note about sending me more photo's and then the CPS stated that he would have to request an adjournment. Clerk asked if i would be objecting to the adjournment and i said i would. She said that is fine, but it will be left to the magistrates to decide whether to adjourn or not. Fair enough i thought, surely they wouldn't grant an adjournment due to the fact that i had been to court on 3 occassions previously and raised the issue about the evidence and the CPS had failed to act.

However, in court the CPS stood up and stated the problem he had and requested an adjournment for either another day or to try and get a witness from the FPU to come and give oral evidence. The clerk prompted me to rise and object to the adjournment and i did - "Objection, I would like the trial to go ahead here and now. I have been to the court on 3 occassions now for what is a summary trial in which i need not have revealed my defence prior to the hearing but had done so on 2 occassions and the CPS should be in a position to deal with any issues that are raised."

The magistrates retired to discuss the adjournment application and came back with and granted the adjournment until 2:30pm to give the CPS time to bring a witness in. At this stage i'm angry, but still in control as surely the witness is now going to struggle to describe how the images that i was in posession of were produced by a Gatsometer...

Sitting in the waiting room and in comes PC 2275 E Harrison and reports to the reception. "Hmm, thats not such a bad thing" i think to myself... He's now going to make a fool of himself infront of the court by giving oral evidence which is contradictory to his statement".

2:30 comes and we head back into court and CPS bring their witness straight in and ask him to give his evidence orally. So off he goes...

"I am PC 2275 Eric Harrison. I am training in the use of Laser, Gatso and Truvelo devices. I was located on the overbridge of the A189 and used laser technology to check the speed of vehicles traveling Northbound using an LTI 20/20 Speedscope Laser and video camera. I sat inside the van and pointed the laser from the door and measured the speed of vehicles after forming the prior opinion that they were exceeding the 70mph speed limit. [blah blah blah] i pointed the crosshairs at the vehicle and pulled the trigger and the device recorded a speed of 117mph."

CPS: "Can you recall what date this occured on?"
PC 2275: "I'm not sure, 13/06 or something.."
CPS: "Can you recall at what time this occured?"
PC 2275: "I'm not sure without referring back to the photographs or the video."

CPS then handed a copy of the photograph to PC 2275 and asked "Can you go through the information contained in the photograph for the benefit of your worships?"

PC 2275: "Well on the top left you have the time and underneath you have the date and then the NR number next to that is not used in the UK. It is irrelevant. It is only relevant to Germany. Then next you have the reference number which is a combination of my number 2275 and the site reference as every site in Northumberland has a unique site reference number. Blow that you have TIMEOUT which is information for the benefit of myself to tell me that i have taken a valid reading and i must leave go of the trigger. Then next we have the speed reading along with a star. The star is to indicate that the speed reading is above the threshold programmed in to the device and acts as a marker on the video tape for ease of processing. Then below that we have the range at which the reading was taken."

At this stage i'm pretty excited as he has walked into his own trap hook line and sinker. I knew it, the clerk knew it and the CPS knew it.

CPS then attempts to dig him out of the whole by pointing out the error that had been made in his statement and PC 2275 acknowledges the error in his statement and blames it as a typographical error and due to the fact that he is handed hundreds of these statements to sign together, it had slipped through unoticed. The clerk looked at me and we exchanged smiles as i scribbled away on my note pad trying to prepare my questioning of PC 2275.

The prosecutor returns to his seat and the clerk invites me to cross examine the witness. I was dreading this moment as i had not had any prior preparation for this occuring. So all i had was the details that i had scribbled down during his prosecution evidence.

I stood and began...

Me: "Can you remind the court of what type of device you were using once more please?"
PC 2275: "Certainly, it was the LTI 20/20 Speedscope"
Me: "So why did you sign a statement knowing it to contain false information?"
PC 2275: "As i have said, i have hundreds of these to sign every day, it slipped through without being noticed. The first i knew of it was today when i was shown it by the prosecutor."
Me: "Can you explain to the court once more why the TIMEOUT error message appears on the photographs?
PC 2275: "It is not an error message, it is a message to notify the operator that a valid reading has been obtained and that the trigger can be released."
Me: "The laser gun takes the speed reading and it appears on the screen. Then about four frames later the word "Timeout" is added to the display. This is to prevent any possibility of recording the speed of one vehicle, and then just pointing the camera at other vehicles and telling everyone that they were doing 117 mph, is this correct!?"
PC 2275: "No, that is not the case. Timeout is there simply to notify myself that i have obtained a valid speed reading."
Me: "So how long does the TIMEOUT message remain on the display for?"
PC 2275: "Erm, i don't know.."
Me: "I'm sorry, you don't know?"
PC 2275: "That's right"
Me: "May i ask how long you've used this device for?"
PC 2275: "I use it every day for approximately 6 hours per day."
Me: "And how many years have you been using this device for?"
PC 2275: "8 years."
Me: "So you've been using this device every day for 6 hours per day for the past 8 years and you do not know how long the TIMEOUT message remains on the display?"
PC 2275: "That's correct, but i will be sure to find out."

I then produced a printout that i had with me of the LTI 20/20 Speedscope information from the front end of Pepipoo with examples of photographs and list of error messages on it. "I have with me a document which specifies the error messages as produced by the LTI 20/20 Speedscope which i would like to introduce to the court. However, this document was not intended to be used and therefore has not been served on the prosecution ot less than 7 days prior to the trial. In light of the recent discovery of the error in the witnesses statement regarding device type, i'd like to introduce this document to assist in my defence if that is permitted?"

The clerk says that that is fine with her and asks the CPS if he would like to take a look at it before i introduced it to the court. He declined and so i passed it to the clerk who forwarded it to PC 2275 who reads the highlighted part regarding the TIMEOUT error message.

PC 2275: "This just confirms what i've said."
Me: "No it doesn't. It actually lists the TIMEOUT message as an error message."
PC 2275: "No, the error codes are listed as error 1, error 2, error 3. Timeout is way up here and not included in the error messages."
Me: "The document lists timeout as the first error message."

The magistrates then request to see the document. The magistrates pick up on the fact that there should be 4 frames prior to the timeout frames and question PC 2275 as to whether this is the case. PC 2275 replies that there is a full video tape of the session which he would've been able to bring along had he of been given more notice that he was required to attend. Whilst they are looking through the document, PC 2275 states that he is unaware of where i obtained the manual from, but would see that it is changed as it is misleading. Can he really dictate as to what we publish on Pepipoo?

I then summarise with the following statement:
"I refer to a copy of a statement made by a Paul Barber, Senior Clerk at the FPU of Northumbria Police in which he states that a 35mm film was received and developed at the FPU and the film processed."
"I also refer to the statement made by PC 2275 E Harrison in which he makes a number of important points including i have received training in the Gatso Radar and Traffic Camera Device, I hereby ceryify that a prescribed device of a type approved by the Secretary of State, Gatsometer Radar Type 24 with Camera AUS was placed at A189 Spine Road/A192 Cramlington (N/S), The resulting 35mm film, along with a log sheet was handed to Northumbria Police FPU personnel and processed."
"The statements of both Paul Barber and PC 2275 are vital to the prosecution in that they show the officers training and familiarity with the devices. Clearly in this case both of the statements are incorrect and misleading and refer wrongly to the process and the images as though the evidence has been collected from the Gatsometer Type 24 with Camera AUS device when the resultant images from a Lastec and LTI 20/20 are entirely different in both appearance and processing."

"No further questions." [I sit back down]

CPS then goes through all of the other paperwork which is pretty irrelevant at this stage as i'm sitting there happy as Larry after PC 2275's performance in the witness box.

The magistrates then retire to discuss their judgement. 5 minutes later they return - bloody hell that was quick, surely i'm to be found not guilty then?

Mag: "Mr Rebrabuk, we find you guilty of speeding." [Erm, hold on.. You're winding me up here?! I couldn't help but to smile and shake my head...]
Clerk: "Do you have your driving license with you Mr Barber?"
Me: "Yes, it's here somewhere" [as i shuffle around on the floor amongst all of my papers. I found it and handed it forward. It's the handed up to the magistrates.]
Me: "May i also hand you this?" [letter from my employees indicating that i'd be sacked should i lose my license.. The clerk takes receipt of it and hands and reads it out to the court before passing it back to the Magistrates and reminding them of the fact that a ban is discretionary.]

The clerk then requested my means form and passed it back to the magistrates.

The magistrates retire to discuss the punishment.

10 minutes later they return and inform me that they will be giving me 6 points and will be fining me 250. The CPS had requested 100 in costs.

The magistrates reitterate the fact that on my means form i stated that i was earning 170 per week and my expenditure was equal to that at 170 per week and questioned how i would manage to pay the costs..

I stated that i would attempt to cut back on some other forms of spending in an attempt to pay the costs. She stated that i couldnt be sent to jail for being late with many of my other expenditures, however i could be for not paying my fine.

The clerk asked if i could make any sort of arrangement to pay the costs in a weekly amount to which i replied that i would try and pay 5 per week. The magistrates discussed this amongst themselves and i overheard one of them saying he'll be paying it back for years and years at that rate so they came to the conclusion of 7.50 per week.

I received a slip of paper from the clerk indicating the terms of repayments and i thanked everyone for their time and came home...

So boys and girls, an unproven 117mph offence landed me with 6 shiney points on my license and lightened my bank balance to the sum of 350.

So of you might think i'm lucky, others might think i'm extremely lucky. I'm sure a few of you will feel as i do though - angry and frustrated at the fact that i was stitched up.


This has been copied/pasted onto other boards so excuse any references to stuff that aren't applicable to users on this board.

The Vectra may live on in my ownership for a little bit longer atleast. I dropped her off at bodyshop this morning to get fixed up properly so although i'm not banned, i'm still car'less for the next few days atleast...

[Edited on 24-12-2005 by Rebrabuk]
DaNnY_LaD
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Registered: 30th Nov 05
Location: Walkden,Manchester
User status: Offline
2nd Dec 05 at 20:19   View User's Profile U2U Member Reply With Quote

tell you what mate...after reading that you are one lucky mofo...Very pleased for ya....
Katie
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Registered: 26th Mar 05
Location: Northampton
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2nd Dec 05 at 20:20   View User's Profile U2U Member Reply With Quote

I don't get it, well confusing.
Jake
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Registered: 24th Jan 05
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2nd Dec 05 at 20:23   View User's Profile U2U Member Reply With Quote

he got 6points and fined 350
Corsalad87
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Registered: 17th Jan 04
Location: Trimdon Vill near Durham
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2nd Dec 05 at 20:24   View User's Profile U2U Member Reply With Quote

Happy for ya!!! ( ie not banned )
Wrighty
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Registered: 28th Feb 04
Location: Howden
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2nd Dec 05 at 20:28   View User's Profile U2U Member Reply With Quote

niceone buddy,least your not banned
Robbo
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Registered: 6th Aug 02
Location: London
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2nd Dec 05 at 20:31   View User's Profile U2U Member Reply With Quote

Fair play for playing the sytsem lol BUT 117 is a tad excessive dude lol
M2RTY
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Registered: 25th May 01
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2nd Dec 05 at 20:33   View User's Profile U2U Member Reply With Quote

what COULD you of been charged with? dang driving etc??
PIE CJ
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Registered: 20th Nov 05
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2nd Dec 05 at 20:33   View User's Profile U2U Member Reply With Quote

very lucky id of walked away pleased with that result, how fast were u actually going ? pm me as it prob silly advertising your true speed

5 yrs ago i got zapped 93mph in a 60 limit 6 points 150 fine and 35 costs.

117mph however is a ban in my eyes, well played, u must of pulled a blinding story

ainsley_brader
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Registered: 24th Mar 02
Location: Tattershall, Lincolnshire
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2nd Dec 05 at 20:34   View User's Profile U2U Member Reply With Quote

Interesting read. Will you appeal?

Edited to say can you appeal against speeding convictions?

[Edited on 02-12-2005 by ainsley_brader]
Katie
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Registered: 26th Mar 05
Location: Northampton
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2nd Dec 05 at 20:36   View User's Profile U2U Member Reply With Quote

quote:
Originally posted by jake
he got 6points and fined 350


Yes i know, but what did he do to get himself out of worse??
Adam-D
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Registered: 11th May 02
Location: Cheshire
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2nd Dec 05 at 20:38   View User's Profile U2U Member Reply With Quote

glad your not banned and well done for sticking up for yourself in court

most pll would shit emselfs
Matt H
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Registered: 11th Sep 01
Location: South Yorkshire
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2nd Dec 05 at 20:38   View User's Profile U2U Member Reply With Quote

Did you not appeal?
Rebrabuk
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Registered: 28th Mar 04
Location: North East
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2nd Dec 05 at 20:40   View User's Profile U2U Member Reply With Quote

Yes i can appeal, considering it at the moment.

As for being luck with points, a ban would've been more useful to me as i'm now on 9 points for the next 3 years...

I was charged with speeding, and could only be charged with speeding.

I did play a blinder, i proved my innocence but they banned me anyway as the police officer lied under oath about the meaning of the timeout error message.

I feel my punishment is a reflection of the doubt in the magistrates eyes over the legitimacy of the offence. Hence i am pissed because if there is any doubt, the case should've been dismissed.
Katie
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Registered: 26th Mar 05
Location: Northampton
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2nd Dec 05 at 20:41   View User's Profile U2U Member Reply With Quote

quote:
Originally posted by Rebrabuk
Yes i can appeal, considering it at the moment.

As for being luck with points, a ban would've been more useful to me as i'm now on 9 points for the next 3 years...

I was charged with speeding, and could only be charged with speeding.

I did play a blinder, i proved my innocence but they banned me anyway as the police officer lied under oath about the meaning of the timeout error message.

I feel my punishment is a reflection of the doubt in the magistrates eyes over the legitimacy of the offence. Hence i am pissed because if there is any doubt, the case should've been dismissed.


Some people aye, never flippin' happy
J da Silva
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Registered: 10th Apr 03
Location: The FACTory
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2nd Dec 05 at 20:41   View User's Profile U2U Member Reply With Quote

quote:
Originally posted by Katie
I don't get it, well confusing.


Quite straight forward to me dopey!
Rebrabuk
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Registered: 28th Mar 04
Location: North East
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2nd Dec 05 at 20:46   View User's Profile U2U Member Reply With Quote

quote:
Originally posted by Katie
quote:
Originally posted by Rebrabuk
Yes i can appeal, considering it at the moment.

As for being luck with points, a ban would've been more useful to me as i'm now on 9 points for the next 3 years...

I was charged with speeding, and could only be charged with speeding.

I did play a blinder, i proved my innocence but they banned me anyway as the police officer lied under oath about the meaning of the timeout error message.

I feel my punishment is a reflection of the doubt in the magistrates eyes over the legitimacy of the offence. Hence i am pissed because if there is any doubt, the case should've been dismissed.


Some people aye, never flippin' happy


If you understood the argument perhaps you'd understand why i'm not happy. Wouldn't suprise me if you were a police officer to be honest...
Katie
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Registered: 26th Mar 05
Location: Northampton
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2nd Dec 05 at 20:47   View User's Profile U2U Member Reply With Quote

Crikey, i was only joking i've read it properly now and understood it. No i'm not a poilice officer.
John
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Registered: 30th Jun 03
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2nd Dec 05 at 20:47   View User's Profile U2U Member Reply With Quote

quote:
Originally posted by Rebrabuk
quote:
Originally posted by Katie
quote:
Originally posted by Rebrabuk
Yes i can appeal, considering it at the moment.

As for being luck with points, a ban would've been more useful to me as i'm now on 9 points for the next 3 years...

I was charged with speeding, and could only be charged with speeding.

I did play a blinder, i proved my innocence but they banned me anyway as the police officer lied under oath about the meaning of the timeout error message.

I feel my punishment is a reflection of the doubt in the magistrates eyes over the legitimacy of the offence. Hence i am pissed because if there is any doubt, the case should've been dismissed.


Some people aye, never flippin' happy


If you understood the argument perhaps you'd understand why i'm not happy. Wouldn't suprise me if you were a police officer to be honest...


Proper credientials to be one anyway from what i've seen.
Katie
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Registered: 26th Mar 05
Location: Northampton
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2nd Dec 05 at 20:48   View User's Profile U2U Member Reply With Quote

What's that supposed to mean?
RKS
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Registered: 2nd Mar 04
Location: Gloucestershire UK
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2nd Dec 05 at 20:52   View User's Profile U2U Member Reply With Quote

Not being funny fella but your should think yourself lucky.... if you are caught speeding over 100 MPH then you should be banned? is this not the case? I would be well happy with getting 6 points and 350 fine
RKS
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Registered: 2nd Mar 04
Location: Gloucestershire UK
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2nd Dec 05 at 20:54   View User's Profile U2U Member Reply With Quote

quote:
Originally posted by Rebrabuk
Yes i can appeal, considering it at the moment.

As for being luck with points, a ban would've been more useful to me as i'm now on 9 points for the next 3 years...

I was charged with speeding, and could only be charged with speeding.

I did play a blinder, i proved my innocence but they banned me anyway as the police officer lied under oath about the meaning of the timeout error message.

I feel my punishment is a reflection of the doubt in the magistrates eyes over the legitimacy of the offence. Hence i am pissed because if there is any doubt, the case should've been dismissed.


go and get a ban then? find a red light to jump or a gatso.....
Katie
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Registered: 26th Mar 05
Location: Northampton
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2nd Dec 05 at 20:56   View User's Profile U2U Member Reply With Quote

Don't say anything like that, he will think your a copper
Adam_B
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Registered: 13th Dec 00
Location: Lancashire
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2nd Dec 05 at 20:57   View User's Profile U2U Member Reply With Quote

So when they pull the trigger on one of these laser gun things they hold the trigger down till it says timeout on the gun, is that right? But you found a document saying timeout was an error message?
Rebrabuk
Member

Registered: 28th Mar 04
Location: North East
User status: Offline
2nd Dec 05 at 20:58   View User's Profile U2U Member Reply With Quote

quote:
Originally posted by --Rikki--
quote:
Originally posted by Rebrabuk
Yes i can appeal, considering it at the moment.

As for being luck with points, a ban would've been more useful to me as i'm now on 9 points for the next 3 years...

I was charged with speeding, and could only be charged with speeding.

I did play a blinder, i proved my innocence but they banned me anyway as the police officer lied under oath about the meaning of the timeout error message.

I feel my punishment is a reflection of the doubt in the magistrates eyes over the legitimacy of the offence. Hence i am pissed because if there is any doubt, the case should've been dismissed.


go and get a ban then? find a red light to jump or a gatso.....


That would take me to 12 points and an automatic 6 month ban rather than being sentenced with a 1 or 2 month ban for my speeding offence today.. It's a 6 month ban that i can't deal with.

p.s. Over 100mph is not an automatic ban (as demonstrated), it is a discretionary ban if the magistrates feel that it is the best course of action. Clearly in my case they thought otherwise which i believe to be due to the doubt in their mind as to the legitimacy of the evidence. If there is any doubt, the case should be dismissed but i think they bottled doing that and compromised with the punishment to keep everyone happy. Everyone except me that is.

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