Hammer
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Registered: 11th Feb 04
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quote:
Originally posted by Pop
If Alex Salmond really cared about the future of Scotland beyond the next generation he would have made a better effort to answer some questions. I know Westminster and others have made it difficult, but in your own words, this is the biggest decision your country has ever had to make. If it was my decision I'd want a hell of a lot more reassurances.
I can't see beyond a win win for Salmond. If you vote Yes he will be known as the man who brought independence. He then steps down and if it goes tits up everyone will blame the new Scottish government. If you vote no, it will be a blow to him but ultimately he will be known as the man who went for independence and came away with more power for Scotland.
I am not anti-Scottish. I went to uni in Glasgow, then lived in Glasgow and worked in Edinburgh afterwards. I have lots of friends dotted about all over who this will affect.
Whether the future is good or bad it's your vote and nothing else matters.
Failure is not a 'win'.
No one has answered any questions significantly, how can they? One side is saying one thing and the other side is stating another, both as facts. It is up to us to decide who to trust.
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Hammer
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Registered: 11th Feb 04
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quote:
Originally posted by Russ
ROI are in a herendous mess.. That desperate they are allowing themselves to be shafted. There's newly built developments that lie less than a quarter sold (purpose built with schools to support them and new train platforms to allow commuting to Dublin) and it ha the highest emigration rate in the EU with over 250 people leaving a day..
What relevance does that have to Scotland and the Referendum? They're in a mess because of recession and they're fighting their way out of it. The articles showing ghost towns were from 2011 or 2012.
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Hammer
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Registered: 11th Feb 04
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve
quote:
Originally posted by Russ
My fear is, 10% understand the repercussions and will vote yes. 10% understand the repercussions and will vote no. 80% will vote yes because some witty videos said they should/they hate the English/they want to be 'independent'
Spot on. It will be the simpletons who decide this.
80% will be the Facebook bandwagon brigade. Sharing about 20 videos a day on their time lines about army men being made to pay for hand luggage in an airport, or how someone flashing their headlights at you means you're going to get knifed, or getting excited about a police officer catching a jet aircraft with a speed gun, and claiming Anderson will be the next best football player, etc
[Edited on 11-09-2014 by Steve]
The Country is split directly down the centre, there are no generalisations to be made. Both sides have millionaires, billionaires and homeless people voting for them.
Jim McColl isn't voting Yes because of a Facebook video and conversely JK Rowling isn't voting No for the same.
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Pop
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Registered: 8th May 03
Location: Reading
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quote:
Originally posted by Hammer
quote:
Originally posted by Pop
If Alex Salmond really cared about the future of Scotland beyond the next generation he would have made a better effort to answer some questions. I know Westminster and others have made it difficult, but in your own words, this is the biggest decision your country has ever had to make. If it was my decision I'd want a hell of a lot more reassurances.
I can't see beyond a win win for Salmond. If you vote Yes he will be known as the man who brought independence. He then steps down and if it goes tits up everyone will blame the new Scottish government. If you vote no, it will be a blow to him but ultimately he will be known as the man who went for independence and came away with more power for Scotland.
I am not anti-Scottish. I went to uni in Glasgow, then lived in Glasgow and worked in Edinburgh afterwards. I have lots of friends dotted about all over who this will affect.
Whether the future is good or bad it's your vote and nothing else matters.
Failure is not a 'win'.
No one has answered any questions significantly, how can they? One side is saying one thing and the other side is stating another, both as facts. It is up to us to decide who to trust.
More power for Scotland is not a 'loss'. Let's agree to disagree on that one.
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Hammer
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Registered: 11th Feb 04
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quote:
Originally posted by Pop
quote:
Originally posted by Hammer
quote:
Originally posted by Pop
If Alex Salmond really cared about the future of Scotland beyond the next generation he would have made a better effort to answer some questions. I know Westminster and others have made it difficult, but in your own words, this is the biggest decision your country has ever had to make. If it was my decision I'd want a hell of a lot more reassurances.
I can't see beyond a win win for Salmond. If you vote Yes he will be known as the man who brought independence. He then steps down and if it goes tits up everyone will blame the new Scottish government. If you vote no, it will be a blow to him but ultimately he will be known as the man who went for independence and came away with more power for Scotland.
I am not anti-Scottish. I went to uni in Glasgow, then lived in Glasgow and worked in Edinburgh afterwards. I have lots of friends dotted about all over who this will affect.
Whether the future is good or bad it's your vote and nothing else matters.
Failure is not a 'win'.
No one has answered any questions significantly, how can they? One side is saying one thing and the other side is stating another, both as facts. It is up to us to decide who to trust.
More power for Scotland is not a 'loss'. Let's agree to disagree on that one.
We're not talking about Scotland, we're talking about Salmond. If No has the majority he has failed not won.
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Pop
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Registered: 8th May 03
Location: Reading
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Salmond is responsible for setting the wheels in motion. If it's a No vote he won't have achieved his ultimate goal; however, Scotland will achieve more power and control than they currently have. That is a win for Scotland.
It may not be the big win that Salmond wants, but I struggle to see how anyone could argue that the Scottish people won't hold him in high regard for gaining more power.
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Ellis
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Registered: 11th Sep 07
Location: Aberdeenshire
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quote:
Originally posted by Pop
Salmond is responsible for setting the wheels in motion. If it's a No vote he won't have achieved his ultimate goal; however, Scotland will achieve more power and control than they currently have. That is a win for Scotland.
It may not be the big win that Salmond wants, but I struggle to see how anyone could argue that the Scottish people won't hold him in high regard for gaining more power.
May I point out that it is merely a semi-agreed timetable to discuss said additional powers for Scotland.
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M16KE B
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Registered: 24th Feb 04
Location: Stirling
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quote:
Originally posted by Ellis
quote:
Originally posted by Pop
Salmond is responsible for setting the wheels in motion. If it's a No vote he won't have achieved his ultimate goal; however, Scotland will achieve more power and control than they currently have. That is a win for Scotland.
It may not be the big win that Salmond wants, but I struggle to see how anyone could argue that the Scottish people won't hold him in high regard for gaining more power.
May I point out that it is merely a semi-agreed timetable to discuss said additional powers for Scotland.
/\ /\ Which in reality amounts to absolutely nothing. If there is a NO result, then i can assure you that this will not be considered a win for Scotland.
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Paul_J
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Registered: 6th Jun 02
Location: London
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quote:
Originally posted by Ojc
You think Scottish politicians are any different? 
You are delusional.
This! ^^
...
The reality is, this is about everyone being unhappy right now ... the country is a mess, we're still coming out of a recession, cut backs everywhere, pay freezes, inflation reducing people's real spending power... It's shit... but it would be this way right now whether you have Labour, Conservatives, Lib Dem, UKIP, Scottish Independents, whoever in power...
Politicians will say and promise anything to get into power... but when they get into power, it's generally always the same ... in the good times things will be good, in the bad times - things will be bad.
I feel this whole Scottish Independence recent rally of Yes voters is the same as the people who started to vote UKIP recently in England... generally impressionable people who just want change because they don't like how things are right now.
Obviously the fact that the conservatives are in power at the moment must rile up the Scottish people more than ever, but in my opinion - at least the tories are trying to dig us out of the hole we're in ... cut backs, hard policies to reduce costs / get people back into work / stop welfare being a life style choice etc... If Labour were still in then they'd just be throwing more money down the drain and increasing the deficit.
I think if the Scot's leave the UK then it's a shame, as it weakens the nation as a whole - but then perhaps the damage is already done? With so many 'yes' campaigners out there, even if a No vote passes - the Scot's will continually feel they missed out on a chance of greatness that Salmon promised them all - Maybe it will be for the best for them to get independence and fail - just so we can say 'I told you so' and have smug grins on our faces in our ivory towers in London.
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Hammer
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Registered: 11th Feb 04
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quote:
Originally posted by Pop
Salmond is responsible for setting the wheels in motion. If it's a No vote he won't have achieved his ultimate goal; however, Scotland will achieve more power and control than they currently have. That is a win for Scotland.
It may not be the big win that Salmond wants, but I struggle to see how anyone could argue that the Scottish people won't hold him in high regard for gaining more power.
We don't celebrate failures.
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Hammer
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Registered: 11th Feb 04
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul_J
I feel this whole Scottish Independence recent rally of Yes voters is the same as the people who started to vote UKIP recently in England... generally impressionable people who just want change because they don't like how things are right now.
That's about as patronising as sticking a Saltire on Westminster for a week.
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Steve
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Registered: 30th Mar 02
Location: Worcestershire Drives: Defender
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It's not patronising, it's true. Vast majority of people are stupid sheep. Facebook is testament to this.
This won't be decided by the informed minority. It will be by the impressionable ill informed majority
[Edited on 11-09-2014 by Steve]
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Paul_J
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Registered: 6th Jun 02
Location: London
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve
It's not patronising, it's true. Vast majority of people are stupid sheep. Facebook is testament to this.
This won't be decided by the informed minority. It will be by the impressionable ill informed majority
Exactly...
Salmond's campaign is pretty much ... 'Are you happy right now with the current government? No... Are you happy right now with your standard of living? No ... Are you happy with cut backs / bedroom taxes / Tory elite being in power in London? No... WELL ... THEN VOTE YES and you WILL have a better future'
If you were Scottish - especially if you were poor / impressionable - you'd find it hard to vote no to that promise.
The problem is ... it's a promise, just like all politicians promise to make things better and ultimately - the world has gone to shit and their promise of better life / better economic prospects / better future - is not really backed up by facts ... just hype / spin of 'hope' and 'change'.
In 10 years time, the same problems will still be there whether Scottish goes independent or not. The only difference is the fact there is a risk it may be worse (for both Scotland and the UK) if they go independent.
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Rob_Quads
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Registered: 29th Mar 01
Location: southampton
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The NHS is a good example that going independent doesn't mean things improve.
Scotland already manages its own NHS but guess what.... its in just as much of a state as the NHS in england.
Of course if you ask Salmond he will say we can spend more more on it and make it better , blah blah but won't mention that to fund everything they say they will improve (which can only be done with money) they will have to increase taxes by a good chunk.
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Paul_J
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Registered: 6th Jun 02
Location: London
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quote:
Originally posted by Rob_Quads
The NHS is a good example that going independent doesn't mean things improve.
Scotland already manages its own NHS but guess what.... its in just as much of a state as the NHS in england.
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Hammer
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Registered: 11th Feb 04
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve
It's not patronising, it's true. Vast majority of people are stupid sheep. Facebook is testament to this.
This won't be decided by the informed minority. It will be by the impressionable ill informed majority
[Edited on 11-09-2014 by Steve]
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Hammer
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Registered: 11th Feb 04
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quote:
Originally posted by Rob_Quads
The NHS is a good example that going independent doesn't mean things improve.
Scotland already manages its own NHS but guess what.... its in just as much of a state as the NHS in england.
Of course if you ask Salmond he will say we can spend more more on it and make it better , blah blah but won't mention that to fund everything they say they will improve (which can only be done with money) they will have to increase taxes by a good chunk.
Scotland does not fully manage it's own NHS.
It appears those suggesting the ill informed sheep are ironically the ill informed sheep.
[Edited on 11-09-2014 by Hammer]
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Rob_Quads
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Registered: 29th Mar 01
Location: southampton
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What major parts does NHS Scotland not manage?
[Edited on 11-09-2014 by Rob_Quads]
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Pop
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Registered: 8th May 03
Location: Reading
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The Scottish Government were in charge of the tram system build in Edinburgh. How did that go? £375M over budget and 3 years late.
It would be hard to argue that a Scottish Government will be no better/worse at wasting money than Westminster.
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Paul_J
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Registered: 6th Jun 02
Location: London
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quote:
Originally posted by Hammer
It appears those suggesting the ill informed sheep are ironically the ill informed sheep.
All I see is someone completely brainwashed replying that people are 'ill informed' whenever anyone points out that things aren't as rosy in reality as Salmond makes it seem in his promises.
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Hammer
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Registered: 11th Feb 04
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quote:
Originally posted by Rob_Quads
What major parts does NHS Scotland not manage?
[Edited on 11-09-2014 by Rob_Quads]
Money, it is financed by a grant from the Treasury. The Treasury cuts the budget, we have no more to stop it.
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Hammer
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Registered: 11th Feb 04
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quote:
Originally posted by Pop
The Scottish Government were in charge of the tram system build in Edinburgh. How did that go? £375M over budget and 3 years late.
It would be hard to argue that a Scottish Government will be no better/worse at wasting money than Westminster.
At least we will have wasted it by making our own decisions.
I don't think an argument about wasting funds will stand up very will if you are going to draw a comparison. Olympics v Commonwealth Games a topical example.
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Hammer
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Registered: 11th Feb 04
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul_J
quote:
Originally posted by Hammer
It appears those suggesting the ill informed sheep are ironically the ill informed sheep.
All I see is someone completely brainwashed replying that people are 'ill informed' whenever anyone points out that things aren't as rosy in reality as Salmond makes it seem in his promises.
All I see is a someone who reads newspapers hundreds of miles away but doesn't have a grasp of the actual debate.
What I can gather from replies in here though is the media have done well in demonising Salmond, who is portrayed as some sort of overlord of Scotland when in reality he is 1 person that happens to be the lead spokesperson for a movement.
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Hammer
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Registered: 11th Feb 04
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Wouldn't surprise me if that was the front page of the Daily Mail - 'Adolf Salmond'.
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Pop
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Registered: 8th May 03
Location: Reading
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quote:
Originally posted by Hammer
quote:
Originally posted by Pop
The Scottish Government were in charge of the tram system build in Edinburgh. How did that go? £375M over budget and 3 years late.
It would be hard to argue that a Scottish Government will be no better/worse at wasting money than Westminster.
At least we will have wasted it by making our own decisions.
I don't think an argument about wasting funds will stand up very will if you are going to draw a comparison. Olympics v Commonwealth Games a topical example.
Stats from July 2013. The cost of hosting the games was £8.9bn and at that point related trade and investment sat at a healthy £9.9bn. Estimates (albeit presumably optimistic) predict a final figure of up to £40bn generated
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