SXi_Tim
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Dr Pepper 
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Tom
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Registered: 3rd Apr 02
Location: Wirral, Merseyside
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I feel is just going to corrode us all like two pence peices so he doesn't have to 
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Dr Pepper
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quote:
Originally posted by Dean_W
quote:
Originally posted by Dr Pepper
Do you have any idea how much this country has just spent on a needless war in afghanastan, and Irak- dont tell me we havnt got the resources.
What we havent got is the poloticians to admit that jail doesnt work.
Jail has never been a solution to crime, at any point of history in any country in the world. All it does is perpetuate the problem.
I am perfectly aware of your first point. And i agree, it is a needless waste of money and lives.
2 and 3. I can't argue until i know what you would do?
Ok heres my solution. This is not going to be a quick solution and I am not suggesting getting rid of jails. What you need to do is reduce the likelyhood that someone will need to or want to offend, and to make sure that if they do offend that they dont go on to reoffend.
There are a few basic things that can be done to reduce prison numbers by looking at who offends the most and tring to stop it. You need
Poor people- It is obvious that poor people will commit more crimes than rich people. By shortening the gulf between rich and poor you will take away the need for many criminals to offend, and stop the destructive 'nothing to lose attitude many people in this country have. To do this tax needs to be increased massively on people who earn over 100k per year, second homes should be taxed to fuk, any car over 50k should be taxed to fuk and luxery products need to be taxed higher. This money should then be put back into the welfare system. I work 6 days a week and I would be perfectly willing to pay more tax knowing it will be going to the unemployed, one parent families, drug addicts - unless you take these people out of the poverty trap then society will never change.
Minimum wage should be increased by at least £5. This should be on a sliding scale depending on how much profit the company involves makes. There is no reason for this not to happen apart from the greed of multi national companies in this country. Tesco makes over 100k profit from each of its employees--- they deserve to be paid more.
Drugs-- all drugs need to be legalized. Take them out of the hands of dealers, tax them and put this money back into drug education and drug addict rehabilitation. most drugs are not dangerous if they are controlled and pure. Having to buy drugs from a dealer is many peoples first step into criminality and this has to be stopped.
Leisure- Build more state funded leisure centres, youth centres, cinemas, sports fields. Give all these groups of kids hanging around the streets another option. Make all these centres none profit making state businesses so they are nice and cheap to use. My town has one leisure centre that you need to be earning over 25k to be able to join. This is wrong and helps to add to youth problems in the area.
Prisons- Spend more money on rehabilitation within our jails- every prisoner should have 0ne to one therepy every day of there inceration. Let them talk face to face with the victims of there crime or there families so they can understand more the impact of there crimes- the reoffending rates of our prisons is a scandal and very little is being done about it. I also believe in care in the community as a way of reintegrating prisoners backninto society.
Sexual crimes, child abuse ect-- The register of sex offenders needs to be made bigger, and every person on it needs closer suppervision. There should be secure mental health wings where we can attempt to cure some of these mental health conditions. Advances in science will help with this problem in the future.
Racial tension- Our government and the usa have alot to answer to for their part in any racial attack in this country. By creating a culture of fear where every one is told that anyone could be a terrorist you are asking for trouble. We dont have an immigrant problem in this country --- there are more english people living in spain than there are immigrantsliving in the united kingdom. The problem is that the worst jobs in this country are so badly paid that noone apart from desperate immigratns are prepaired to do them--- this means there is a labour gap which has to be filled by foreigners. Raising the minimum wage will help to solve this problem as it will actually make shite jobs worth doing.
Sorry for the essay but you were acting as if there was nothing to be done to reduce crime and eventually reduce our prison population. All these solutions are possible, it just needs the political and social will to be there for them to be carried out. The liberal democrats are getting close to some of these ideas but are not going nearly far enough.
[Edited on 09-11-2006 by Dr Pepper]
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Dr Pepper
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Registered: 21st Sep 02
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sorry about my spelling in that I was rushing it out at work before my boss caught me.
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JadeM
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Registered: 9th Feb 06
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Pepper
sorry about my spelling in that I was rushing it out at work before my boss caught me.
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Dr Pepper
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So you see-- Im not saying get rid of prisons -- im suggesting stopping as manypeople as possible from ever going to prison---
punishment and revenge dont stop crime.... you need to look at the roots of someone commiting a crime and stop the will or need to offend.
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Tom
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This does not take into consideration the fact that some people were just born bad 
Sorry not read it all mate, will do tomorrow as i'm off now.
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Dr Pepper
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And for the record I dont believe any of this can happen with any of the current political parties in charge--- none of them have the ability, organisation or power to redistribute tax in this way..... I t would need a massive change in the way everyone in this country thinks to change anything.....and I am perfectly aware that at the moment we are miles away from any change happening.
That doesnt mean we should all give up on a world where no one needs to commit crime and resort to just killing prisoners off.
As I have said many times in this thread--- the death penalty will not stop crime--- it didnt stop it when we had it before, and it doesnt stop it in any other country that still has it.
you might get your half hour of revenge on a murderer, but then sure enough there will be another murder just around the corner.
You have to stop the reasons for crime occuring.
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Dean_W
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That has some good points, apart form the rich/poor divide. Just because somone isn't well off doesn't mean they commit crimes like what was stated in this thread. Serious crimes like pre-meditated murder can be committed by anyone, from any walk of life, rich or poor.
But,i still think that serious crimes like murder, which this thread is about should carry stiffer sentances.
For all other crimes, your points would work. I still think the death sentance should be used in the worst cases.
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Dr Pepper
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quote:
Originally posted by Tom
This does not take into consideration the fact that some people were just born bad
Sorry not read it all mate, will do tomorrow as i'm off now.
Dont even get me started on that---- no one was born bad you fucking muppet (if you were making a joke then i appologise)
It is our surroundings from a young age that shape us. I admit some people are born with mental problems but they can be treated.
The probllem is that people are being born into a system of poverty and crime that it is hard to escape from. Unless you narrow the gap between rich and poor nothing will ever changs.
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Dr Pepper
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quote:
Originally posted by Dean_W
That has some good points, apart form the rich/poor divide. Just because somone isn't well off doesn't mean they commit crimes like what was stated in this thread. Serious crimes like pre-meditated murder can be committed by anyone, from any walk of life, rich or poor.
But,i still think that serious crimes like murder, which this thread is about should carry stiffer sentances.
For all other crimes, your points would work. I still think the death sentance should be used in the worst cases.
I am not blaming the poor for crimes--- My parents are working class and I earn fuk all myself amd have to pay a graduate loan - I only have the car I have and was able to go to uni because my grandad left me a nice bit of money to have when I was 21-- But most crimes in this country are commited by the poor--- this is obvious and completely understandable---- people are terrified of paying more taxes to give more welfare because they think it is unfair for them to work and for their money to be given to the unemplyed. Well if it helps to bring down crime and create a better place to live in then I am all for it.
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Dr Pepper
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Registered: 21st Sep 02
Location: oxford Drives Renault Clio RS200
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quote:
Originally posted by Dean_W
That has some good points, apart form the rich/poor divide. Just because somone isn't well off doesn't mean they commit crimes like what was stated in this thread. Serious crimes like pre-meditated murder can be committed by anyone, from any walk of life, rich or poor.
But,i still think that serious crimes like murder, which this thread is about should carry stiffer sentances.
For all other crimes, your points would work. I still think the death sentance should be used in the worst cases.
I admit it is hard to controll the more serious premeditated crimes--- but these are the minority of crimes.
We need to stop all the other crimes that are avoidable if you change the way society is structured. If someone is cheating with your wife and you kill them -- this is impossible for anyone to predict or control- and prison with a complex rehabilitation programme may be the only solution.
I do also believe that some people are so mentally ill/unstable that they must never be allowed out of a secure mental hospital--- I dont wont to see these peolpe killed because of the message that sends out to the rest of the country - taking a life should always be the last possible option in any circumstances. Besides I believe there are many social workers and doctors who would learn alot about treating mental conditions that cause crime by monitering these types of prisoners closely while they are locked away from society.
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ssj_kakarot
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Registered: 29th Apr 03
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theres no proof either way that people are born bad or become bad through there upbring and situations.
Nature vs Nurture, there is no answer, theres many different views on the subject, so you cant really call some one a muppet for saying some one is born bad when they may be perfectly correct.
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abdus
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Registered: 23rd Feb 06
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Dr Pepper, have you done any study in legal theory or sociology?
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ssj_kakarot
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And yes social class does have an effect on crime, however, this would not explain why a poor person randomly kills some one, it only explains why a poor person would steal money or rob a bank.
For every theory that has been created there are always arguments against.
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ssj_kakarot
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quote:
Originally posted by abdus
Dr Pepper, have you done any study in legal theory or sociology?
lol if he did, with the theories hes just been spouting he wouldn't have got a very high grade.
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abdus
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Registered: 23rd Feb 06
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quote:
Originally posted by ssj_kakarot
quote:
Originally posted by abdus
Dr Pepper, have you done any study in legal theory or sociology?
lol if he did, with the theories hes just been spouting he wouldn't have got a very high grade.
TBH, I seem to agree with a lot of his points And I'm doing legal studies
Until now, I've got very good grades (well for the normal standards  )
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Dr Pepper
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Registered: 21st Sep 02
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quote:
Originally posted by abdus
Dr Pepper, have you done any study in legal theory or sociology?
Yeah- I have a done a masters in history and politics-- a large part of my course was criminology and crime in society, and lots of my courses crossed over with law and sociology courses. To be honest though I had all the opinions I had now before I completed my degree and I dont think a degree makes my point more valid than any one elses.
I just honestly believe that anyone who thinks the death penalty is a solution either hasnt thought about things hard enough, or they dont know enough about the issue.
It just doesnt make sense in any way.
Just take a look at how it works in the contries that still have it - The usa for example.
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ssj_kakarot
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no i agree with some if not all of the theories, however, hes stating that there set in stone, which with most theories its not the case, theres always arguments against.
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Dr Pepper
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quote:
Originally posted by ssj_kakarot
quote:
Originally posted by abdus
Dr Pepper, have you done any study in legal theory or sociology?
lol if he did, with the theories hes just been spouting he wouldn't have got a very high grade.
Well I managed to get a Masters from one of the better History departments in the country.... and I worked 40 hours a week pretty much the whole way though it. There are no correct answers in History.. its all about cause and causation.
Bear in mind im not writing a dissertation here- Im typing as it comes out of my head so I might not be putting things accross as clearly or as well balanced as I could.
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Dr Pepper
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quote:
Originally posted by ssj_kakarot
no i agree with some if not all of the theories, however, hes stating that there set in stone, which with most theories its not the case, theres always arguments against.
Im not trying to do that... I apologise. I am happy if people disagree with me, debate is a good thing and there is not enough of it in the current climate. At least people are thinking in this thread now-- I just didnt like the way people were getting on there high horse about this racial violence when that is exactly what was being portrayed at the start of this thread.
There are too many threads on this site whith the same old people being overtly rasist and violent inside-- see any thread on this site about immigrants for an example. The reason for this is because many people dont understand the reasons behind crime, or illegal immigration.
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abdus
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Registered: 23rd Feb 06
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good points and good discussion.
Keep it clean with no personal comments 
BTW, for this particular case, I'm not too sure about the sentencing, though a minimum of 25 years in jail would definitely make a difference. But again, in jails, you do have gangs whihc means thta in 25 years, if one of the killers cited above has been in one of the jail gangs and is released on parole, they can still recidivate if they haven't been reformed.
In this particular case, I don;t agree to the sentence because they were all recidivists.
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Hammer
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Registered: 11th Feb 04
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Pepper
God there are some fuking idiots on this site.
Your all raging about a racially motivated murder and then all you can say is...
"shoot the Bastards"
"they shouldnt be here anyway"
"deport them and hope the boat sinks"
"A life for a life"
Hate breads hate
I refuse to read any of your posts solving the problem's of the world from here on in as i burst out laughing
Here's my solution better schooling and that will BREAD a better society
[Edited on 09-11-2006 by Hammer]
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Dr Pepper
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I wouldnt be this one sided if I was writing for an exam- this is my own opinion not a well balanced argument. Sometimes you have to get an argument going for people to get interested in what is being said.
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ajscorsa
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Registered: 30th Apr 02
Location: Perceton, North Ayrshire
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justice system in this country is shite. they only get 20 years. all of which they will be protected because they would get killed other wise. they will be kept away from the normal prisoners.
hope they rot in hell!!
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