Robin
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Registered: 7th Jan 04
Location: Northants Drives: Clio 182 Cup
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul_J
Sorry but...
PMSL 
http://www.moller.com/video1.htm
That is quite funny
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John
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Registered: 30th Jun 03
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So because you are wrong lets laugh at a mock up 
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Paul_J
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Registered: 6th Jun 02
Location: London
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quote:
Originally posted by Robin
It's not a 'large electrical cable going into it' as the Moller Skycar is Wankel powered.
The 'cable' is for telemetry.
You seem to be arguing that VTOL is impossible without electrical input?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AV-8_Harrier_II
[Edited on 15-01-2008 by Robin]
No you two are banging on about other cars / vehicles ...
A harrier can perform hovering, because look at the size of the engine / turbine on it 
To be fair john, looking at that moller sky car site yeh its saying different things now and it's possible that they are powered by wankel engines, still because it's american it's junk that'll never really work properly (i.e. look at test vids, unstable as fuck).
But the CAR I'm talking about, i.e. the one in the ebay ad and the one we're assuming can fly (before you guys went off topic) - WILL NOT FLY without any external energy input.
Look at the fans they're weedy, the motors are weedy and once again no energy source.
At least the moller sky car has big area's where engine / motors can be etc.
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John
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Registered: 30th Jun 03
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The cars you are talking about did take off, they just came back down to earth with a bang, why is it being questioned?
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Paul_J
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Registered: 6th Jun 02
Location: London
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quote:
Originally posted by John
The cars you are talking about did take off, they just came back down to earth with a bang, why is it being questioned?
Where's your proof..
Maybe took off with external power source... but was still crap.
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Robin
Premium Member
Registered: 7th Jan 04
Location: Northants Drives: Clio 182 Cup
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Paul, sorry but how the hell can you say it WILL NOT FLY without external input without actually knowing if it's got an engine FFS?
You keep saying it would need external power, but the engine (which is behind the seats) may well be driving a generator which can provide enough power to run the fans at a speed capable of generating enough lift for a 400lb vehicle.
But it's American so must be crap.
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Paul_J
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Registered: 6th Jun 02
Location: London
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quote:
Originally posted by Robin
Paul, sorry but how the hell can you say it WILL NOT FLY without external input without actually knowing if it's got an engine FFS?
You keep saying it would need external power, but the engine (which is behind the seats) may well be driving a generator which can provide enough power to run the fans at a speed capable of generating enough lift for a 400lb vehicle.
But it's American so must be crap.
If it has an engine it probably weighs a lot. The generator links directly or powers some batteries / large power caps? weight weight... plus fuel for the thing ... weight weight...
German's nearly cracked proper hover flight in WW2. It wasn't using fans.
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John
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Registered: 30th Jun 03
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Where is your proof, did you read about it.
OJC used to post a lot of things the germans almost done in WW2 
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Paul_J
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Registered: 6th Jun 02
Location: London
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quote:
Originally posted by Robin
Paul, sorry but how the hell can you say it WILL NOT FLY without external input without actually knowing if it's got an engine FFS?
You keep saying it would need external power, but the engine (which is behind the seats) may well be driving a generator which can provide enough power to run the fans at a speed capable of generating enough lift for a 400lb vehicle.
But it's American so must be crap.
It is crap tho, if u search on their site for a vid of the engines on that moller sky car tilting up and down, they turn so slowly, that it wouldn't have the fine adjustment needed to provide anything near what they show in their demo mocked up vid.
I reckon i could program a AI powered craft that could hover, it'll constantly monitor everything from it's position, tilt, rotation etc, and adjust accordingly to provide a stable flat platform, even if you try to push it over or have a large wind.
It'd require a external power source and some electric motors and fast responding servos tho.
I want to do this one day for a laugh, but not now as I have no time.
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Paul_J
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Registered: 6th Jun 02
Location: London
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All I'm saying Robin is you have to think outside the box. American's attitude to everything is simple.
American's want a quicker car, they just chuck a larger block engine in it, that's lazy and unefficent.
Germans or Japs want more power on a convential engine and they think outside the box and develop new technologies like variable valve timing, engine mapping, etc.
you see what I'm saying, American's are dumb full stop and those sky cars have been kicking around for years, and never took off 'excuse the pun' because they were rubbish.
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Paul_J
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Registered: 6th Jun 02
Location: London
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quite cool imo...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mP5JgG1-0jg
The bit I'm suggesting watching is after 1 minute 10 in the video... quite cool, obviously requires external power tho.
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Robin
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Registered: 7th Jan 04
Location: Northants Drives: Clio 182 Cup
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I still don't see how you can dismiss it as not being possible without knowing the details.
Engines can be made from lightweight metals, there's no reason why it couldn't directly drive the motors (other than safety ), and a 40 litre fuel tank would only weigh 30kg, which is quite reasonable capacity wise, and weight wise.
The whole thing could still weigh very little, if it's made from the right materials.
Without knowing the weight, or the thrust the fans generate, you can't say it won't fly.
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Paul_J
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Registered: 6th Jun 02
Location: London
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quote:
Originally posted by Robin
I still don't see how you can dismiss it as not being possible without knowing the details.
Engines can be made from lightweight metals, there's no reason why it couldn't directly drive the motors (other than safety ), and a 40 litre fuel tank would only weigh 30kg, which is quite reasonable capacity wise, and weight wise.
The whole thing could still weigh very little, if it's made from the right materials.
Without knowing the weight, or the thrust the fans generate, you can't say it won't fly.
show me where in that pic I keep posting of that craft off ebay, you could attach any sort of 'drive' mechanism to the electric motor that is suspended in the middle of the fan?? 
There's no space you can get a prop drive to it, or chain or belt.
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Robin
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Registered: 7th Jan 04
Location: Northants Drives: Clio 182 Cup
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Sorry, I missed out the bit about a generator as I was trying to find the weight of petrol
Engine > Generator > Wires > Motor > Fanblade.
However, there are other methods, could be liquid driven, but my money would be on electric drive from a generator driven from the engine.
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Paul_J
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Registered: 6th Jun 02
Location: London
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anyway, pointless arguing it anymore... it's junk, hence never went into production.
end of.
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