Sooty
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your talking about a principal which applies to all business's? were talking about united ?
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Hammer
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this should now be moved to geek day i think 
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Sooty
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Gone terribly off topic this
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Cosmo
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quote:
Originally posted by Sooty
your talking about a principal which applies to all business's? were talking about united ?
yeah, it applies to all businesses but it indicates the amount of debt funding in the business compared to the amount of equity funding which as you know is preferable due to no interest to pay back. What I am saying is yeah, Leeds and Utd are different clubs in terms of size and stature, but if you look into the business side and particularly the gearing ratios then Im betitng they will be very similar (and extremely high)
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Sooty
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quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo
quote:
Originally posted by Sooty
your talking about a principal which applies to all business's? were talking about united ?
yeah, it applies to all businesses but it indicates the amount of debt funding in the business compared to the amount of equity funding which as you know is preferable due to no interest to pay back. What I am saying is yeah, Leeds and Utd are different clubs in terms of size and stature, but if you look into the business side and particularly the gearing ratios then Im betitng they will be very similar (and extremely high)
They are.... of course the ratio's are high given the level of 'borrowing' however what im saying is... the size and stature of the club is paramount in this case, and is the reason why it will never happen to Untied what has happened to Leeds..... speaking of Leeds... how bad is their situation at the moment? I know they sold Elland ...
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Cosmo
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quote:
Originally posted by Sooty
They are.... of course the ratio's are high given the level of 'borrowing' however what im saying is... the size and stature of the club is paramount in this case, and is the reason why it will never happen to Untied what has happened to Leeds..... speaking of Leeds... how bad is their situation at the moment? I know they sold Elland ...
Size and stature makes no difference. If you cant pay back your loans then it'll happen. Its happened to larger more prestigous companies in the past and will happen in the future. Other businesses have to sell enough of their product to make profit...you have to be successful to attract the sponsors, fans, TV coverage, winners money, etc. and your whole plan to pay off the loans is balanced on you winning stuff which is no definite thing.
So saying it cant happen given your amount of borrowing is ridiculous and if you work for an accountants software company you'll know that what your saying is utter shit.
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Sooty
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quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo
quote:
Originally posted by Sooty
They are.... of course the ratio's are high given the level of 'borrowing' however what im saying is... the size and stature of the club is paramount in this case, and is the reason why it will never happen to Untied what has happened to Leeds..... speaking of Leeds... how bad is their situation at the moment? I know they sold Elland ...
So saying it cant happen given your amount of borrowing is ridiculous and if you work for an accountants software company you'll know that what your saying is utter shit.
sorry mate, but your full of crap here... thought for a second you had merit to your point
your basically saying no matter how big we are the amount is ridicolous...
okay then tell me... how much would be ACCEPTABLE in your eyes for a club such as say Liverpool or Arsenal to have debt wise?
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Cosmo
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quote:
Originally posted by Sooty
sorry mate, but your full of crap here... thought for a second you had merit to your point
your basically saying no matter how big we are the amount is ridicolous...
okay then tell me... how much would be ACCEPTABLE in your eyes for a club such as say Liverpool or Arsenal to have debt wise?
no, Im not saying no matter how big you are. If you were bringing in 100mil profit a year then 500mil wouldnt be bad debt. Your worth 700mil, with 500mil debt and bringing in less than 20mil profit a year. Your an accountant FFS, take the blinkers off and look at the figures. Everyone can see it. Search Google and read the reports on FT.com, BBC and all those, they'll tell you similar stuff to me. But then again...they are probably full of crap too.
For me, aslong as the club (liverpool or arsenal) have the ability to cover the loan repayments regardless of performances then thats acceptable and the company is 100% safe. I know for a fact we do, but Im not sure about Arsenal.
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Sooty
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quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo
quote:
Originally posted by Sooty
sorry mate, but your full of crap here... thought for a second you had merit to your point
your basically saying no matter how big we are the amount is ridicolous...
okay then tell me... how much would be ACCEPTABLE in your eyes for a club such as say Liverpool or Arsenal to have debt wise?
no, Im not saying no matter how big you are. If you were bringing in 100mil profit a year then 500mil wouldnt be bad debt. Your worth 700mil, with 500mil debt and bringing in less than 20mil profit a year. Your an accountant FFS, take the blinkers off and look at the figures. Everyone can see it. Search Google and read the reports on FT.com, BBC and all those, they'll tell you similar stuff to me. But then again...they are probably full of crap too.
For me, aslong as the club (liverpool or arsenal) have the ability to cover the loan repayments regardless of performances then thats acceptable and the company is 100% safe. I know for a fact we do, but Im not sure about Arsenal.
im not an accountant
not sure what your on about blinkers fella... but i dont really listen to much to BBC, FT etc.... i can tell you now, united make more than 20m a year
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Cosmo
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quote:
Originally posted by Sooty
im not an accountant
not sure what your on about blinkers fella... but i dont really listen to much to BBC, FT etc.... i can tell you now, united make more than 20m a year
OK...your work for an accounts software company...so you'll still have a fairly good idea on the understanding of accounts?
Ive no blinkers on, I would hate to see Utd get into trouble. Im just looking at the figures and saying what I see which, TBH, seems to be obvious to the majority of people with business knowledge out there.
Oh, and more than 20mil profit (after tax ofcourse as this is what matters). Youve just asked for their accounts so you obviously dont have them, so whats this based on. A search on google will show you your wrong straight away.
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Sooty
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Its probably closer to 30m aftertax as you say, which will rise with the stadium expansion, new shirt sales... etc
Manchester United are not going anywhere, thats the bottom line, yes the debt is high, however to disagree with what your saying YES size DOES MATTER ... if we were as big as say Liverpool then id be worried (not a jab at you at all)
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Cosmo
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quote:
Originally posted by Sooty
Its probably closer to 30m aftertax as you say, which will rise with the stadium expansion, new shirt sales... etc
Manchester United are not going anywhere, thats the bottom line, yes the debt is high, however to disagree with what your saying YES size DOES MATTER ... if we were as big as say Liverpool then id be worried (not a jab at you at all)
Its no where near 30mil after tax (atleast not from the figures I can find on the net, they are more like 10-15m after tax). Id be seriously worried if I was a Utd fan, the state of the club at the moment does not look good at all, and if you dont perform well on the field in the next few years and win something major (Champions League or Prem) then your going to be in serious trouble.
And Im happy with Liverpool not being that big. We are stull hugely supported around the world and are just as well known (if not supported) as Utd. We dont have any (or little) debt yet still finished 1pt behind you this season and won the FA Cup along with Champions League the year before.
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Sooty
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Figures on the internet are too varying... its found anything from 10m... up to 50m all inaccurate to go off
I am not seriously worried at all... infact im looking forward to the next 2-3 years and see whats going to happen with regards to a few of our players
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Cosmo
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quote:
Originally posted by Sooty
Figures on the internet are too varying... its found anything from 10m... up to 50m all inaccurate to go off
I am not seriously worried at all... infact im looking forward to the next 2-3 years and see whats going to happen with regards to a few of our players
get them off ft.com, about as accurate as your going to get.
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