Graeme
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Registered: 26th Jul 04
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I'm half Scottish and I think it would be bad for Scotland to be independent.
All of my family live in Scotland and apart from 1 they all feel the same. For the population there just isn't enough of an income in taxes to support what happens at the moment.
The transport systems, free subscriptions, the road networks all that are well maintained just won't be able to cope with massive money cuts.
[Edited on 14-02-2014 by Graeme]
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John
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Registered: 30th Jun 03
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What cuts?
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alan-g-w
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Registered: 9th Nov 07
Location: Glasgow
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No offence to you personally Graeme but lol at well maintained road networks. Alex Salmond fucked that up by freezing council tax for the last 3 or 4 years, I'm in and around the city centre a lot and the roads are absolutely shocking in general. It's honestly a case of if the road hasn't been re-laid in the last couple of years it's a mess.
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ShEp
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Registered: 9th Aug 05
Location: Dingwall, Highland
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Can't fuck it up for ourselves much more than London has for us.
I don't like Salmond, but I will vote yes, I want an independent Scotland, just not him running it.
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rustyarchs
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Registered: 29th Aug 04
Location: scotland
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money cuts 
compared to the average of the rest of the UK we pay more tax per head, have lower unemployment, have a lower pension need (albeit due to going 6ft under 2 years earlier  ) have lower debt per head a better GDP yet we face cuts... well in fact yes! we will have cuts if we stay in the UK
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Pop
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Registered: 8th May 03
Location: Reading
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I'm English but used to live and work up in Scotland for a few years, so have an interest in what's happening.
It's safe to say that both sides will use a bit of scaremongering along the way. If I was voting I would be a little concerned around some of the gaps in information that Salmon and colleagues seem to be avoiding.
Other things seem to have gone under the radar as well like the fact that food in supermarkets is likely to cost more. Basic stuff like increase in food prices will affect people.
I fully understand the argument from lots of Scots that if they get independence and it goes tits up then at least it was due to their own choices. Personally I think the fallout from a potential new currency and other factors not realised right now could be very detrimental to us all.
[Edited on 14-02-2014 by Pop]
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rustyarchs
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Safe to say the scaremongering is pretty much on the better together campaigns side az its not easy to scaremonger on a known quantity or luckily its also not needed going by Westminsters history lol. Theres a lot less holes in the white paper than the uk has answered in fact they havent gave anything concrete in writing yet! Also salmond as head of scotland wants to debate with cameron the head of england yet davey boy wont
The food point is good one though and I took interest when it was first flashed in the papers but all the big supermarkets either shot it down or distanced them selves from it and I believe it was morrisons whom the article mentioned saying the prices could go up? But there spokesman after the story broke admitted prices could actually go down!
See if the uk goverment actually put positive points forward for a case of scotland staying instead of possible negatives for scotland that quickly get rubbished then things would go better, its crazy!
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BluKoo
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Registered: 8th Apr 02
Location: Stonehaven (Scotland)
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If it aint broke. Don't fix it.
Fair enough some may argue that it is broke, but I don't think breaking it in two is going to make matters any better.
Strength in numbers and all that...
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Pop
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Registered: 8th May 03
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I've just had a quick look again and it was Morrisons and Asda who said prices would increase. Currently the UK subsidise the increased cost of distributing food to Scotland and the Scottish government say that plans to cut fuel duty and reduce corporation tax would more than balance the cost out. What if they aren't able to do this? It's relying heavily on things like having the financial stability of keeping the pound.
My other concern would be the lack of a Plan B re. currency. It's my opinion that we will all lose out if you weren't allowed to use the pound, however, it is a reality that the Scottish government must face up to. How can anyone confidently vote Yes with that unanswered. It has such huge ramifications that if they don't let voters know what plan B is then I think many who were on the fence will swing towards a No.
There's still plenty of time for the smoke and mirrors from both sides to continue. I think we should stay together as clearly Scotland plays a vital role in supporting the UK. My concern for Scotland is that what is a positive looking picture looking at the figures could end up going wrong. There's too much riding on you keeping the currency and it would be optimistic to think that some of the larger companies would stay domiciled in Scotland should the financial landscape change for the worse.
Clearly you are very passionate towards independence and that's not a bad thing. I'm more neutral and am not convinced at the moment that the split would definitely leave Scotland in a better position.
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Steve
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Registered: 30th Mar 02
Location: Worcestershire Drives: Defender
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Cant wait for Scotland to go independent, clearly think they're better than the English, will end up a third world country, skinning sheep and eating snails.
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JonnyJ
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Registered: 23rd Sep 05
Location: Scotchland
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Did you go to the Jose Mourinho school of trolling, Steve?
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sc0ott
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Registered: 16th Feb 09
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No he went to jimmy savilles school of paedophilia.
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alan-g-w
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Registered: 9th Nov 07
Location: Glasgow
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Fuckin lol
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Colin
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Registered: 4th Apr 02
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http://eveningharold.com/2014/02/13/scots-cant-leave-uk-and-keep-buckfast-tonic-wine-says-chancellor/
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Steve
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Registered: 30th Mar 02
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Feel free to step to me anytime you like
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CorsAsh
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Registered: 19th Apr 02
Location: Munich
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quote:
Originally posted by John
Oil industry is thriving.
I'd give it a year after independence before the US invades, looking for WMDs.
We're already bringing all our hardware back from Afghanistan in preparation for it.
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Ojc
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Registered: 14th Nov 00
Location: Reading: Drives : Clio 197
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Scotland is going to be a wasteland within 5 years.
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rustyarchs
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Registered: 29th Aug 04
Location: scotland
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I knew it was Morrison's who made the original statement that kicked it all off but wasn't asda's more of an if the costs of doing business in Scotland rise and the regulations changed then prices would maybe go up? and like i said the big 4 then all said they had no plans to increase costs! you have mentioned the fuel and the business tax reductions but there is also an extra 1 billion made available to support the farmers so again like Morrison's also said if anything the costs may go down.
I don't think there is the need for a plan b as all things sensible point to keeping it, top economists, the governor of the bank of England and he is the man who counts. and of course the facts we own a rather large share in it and a pegged currency has been done before although on a much larger share! part of me would enjoy a separate currency as that way we would have full fiscal control.
Large companies will still be happy in Scotland, cheaper rates, cheaper labour, cheaper rent and of course a huge market they would miss out on if they left! interesting thing though is nobody knows how much extra the Scottish governments budget will increase when business tax gets paid here instead of going down south although safe to say it will be an impressive figure.
I'm very much for independence and have always been a fan of politics so i keep a keen eye on both sides of the debate although I'm not blinded with nonsense and instead look for facts and common sense... however i admit I'm so Scottish i own a Claymore sword (its part of my zombie survival kit ) ! your not totally neutral that is obvious with the comment on Salmond avoiding the gaps in information when its pretty clear the UK government are the ones with the gaps or should that be abysses.
As for the old if it aint broke don't fix it thing totally goes against progression, Christ should we would all still be cave men?
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alan-g-w
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Registered: 9th Nov 07
Location: Glasgow
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Here's my bottom line on all this, beyond the propaganda and bluster that Salmond continuously peddles. This is not the time for any country in the world to be splitting from another. Maybe if the referendum in the 80s (iirc) got enough votes it would be a viable option since the world was thriving at that time and subsequently we'd have had 20yrs of it going fine before the 'economic downturn' came about. The fact that the SNP want to now sever ties with countries which, ultimately, make our lives easier is a total joke. They themselves have admitted that it's fraught with danger, that there is a risk element involved.
Why choose to be doing this at a time when the world is just starting to get back on its feet and when Britain, never mind Scotland, aren't at their best? This is why it reeks of self importance amongst the nationalist ranks. To clarify, I'm not saying I don't think Scotland could afford to go independent even though I'm against it - I'm saying that in the last 25yrs this has got to be the worst possible time to be thinking about proposing it.
As I've said, Salmond and his cronies are planning every single political move with the independence referendum in mind, not the interests of the Scottish citizens. But he'll lie (non existent EU advice anyone?), perform spectacular u-t urns over the pound and NATO from what has been values at the heart of his party for years - what does this tell us about how he'll be running an independent country?
[Edited on 15-02-2014 by alan-g-w]
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rustyarchs
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dude you do actually realise that in the 1979 referendum more people actually voted for independence than against it? over 50% who actually voted did vote for it but sadly at the time the goalposts were moved rather sneakily - 40% of the registerd voters in scotland had to vote in order for it to count, this included those in hospital those that could not get away from work, those on holiday and brilliantly those who had recently died and not removed from the voters role yet!! meaning we actually won by majority so we got enough votes
this is the best time to go it alone! actually read up on the facts you will see this
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Pop
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Registered: 8th May 03
Location: Reading
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quote:
Originally posted by rustyarchs
I knew it was Morrison's who made the original statement that kicked it all off but wasn't asda's more of an if the costs of doing business in Scotland rise and the regulations changed then prices would maybe go up? and like i said the big 4 then all said they had no plans to increase costs! you have mentioned the fuel and the business tax reductions but there is also an extra 1 billion made available to support the farmers so again like Morrison's also said if anything the costs may go down.
Here's a link to the original story in the FT - http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/064cc436-5e7e-11e3-8621-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2tORf5udo
To me that seems pretty factual that the cost of distribution is much higher in Scotland. What isn't a given is that the Scottish government will be able to come good on fuel and tax reductions. Chances are they will be able to, but it isn't guaranteed.
quote:
Originally posted by rustyarchsI don't think there is the need for a plan b as all things sensible point to keeping it, top economists, the governor of the bank of England and he is the man who counts. and of course the facts we own a rather large share in it and a pegged currency has been done before although on a much larger share! part of me would enjoy a separate currency as that way we would have full fiscal control.
To have no plan B is suicide! When has sensibility ever come into politics, especially when it involves a very public splitting of nations? Without the pound all these benefits that Salmond is suggesting will rapidly erode in the costs associated with setting up a new currency or being lumbered with the issues associated with the Euro. The UK could be very stubborn and cut its nose of to spite its face over this.
quote:
Originally posted by rustyarchsLarge companies will still be happy in Scotland, cheaper rates, cheaper labour, cheaper rent and of course a huge market they would miss out on if they left! interesting thing though is nobody knows how much extra the Scottish governments budget will increase when business tax gets paid here instead of going down south although safe to say it will be an impressive figure.
As above, this relies heavily on the pound. If the government can't balance the books then the money will have to come from somewhere. There are lots of big businesses that have headquarters in Scotland that could easily shift somewhere else. I'm not saying they would move to England, there's a good chance they would opt for Ireland or elsewhere. These companies would be unlikely to lose out on much if they left as the Scottish people would still need their services and products. National boycotting of companies very rarely works.
quote:
Originally posted by rustyarchsYour not totally neutral that is obvious with the comment on Salmond avoiding the gaps in information when its pretty clear the UK government are the ones with the gaps or should that be abysses.
I never said I was totally neutral, I'm just more neutral than others as it is likely to have less direct impact on my life. Of course the UK government have massive gaps, they don't want to see the split happen. If Salmond is to convince enough people he should be giving more information. I appreciate that a lot of it has to be guess work and the UK government are not helping, however, do you really trust that he isn't just on a massive power trip that won't leave Scotland open to lots potential issues going forwards
What are your thoughts on the Commonwealth Games in terms of swinging voters? Scotland are going to have to be seen as pushing how great Britain is and supporting all nations at the games. That must be seriously grating at Salmond etc.
One thing that is for certain is the UK will be worse off without Scotland, Scotland could easily be worse off too.
[Edited on 15-02-2014 by Pop]
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rustyarchs
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Registered: 29th Aug 04
Location: scotland
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quote:
Originally posted by rustyarchs
I knew it was Morrison's who made the original statement that kicked it all off but wasn't asda's more of an if the costs of doing business in Scotland rise and the regulations changed then prices would maybe go up? and like i said the big 4 then all said they had no plans to increase costs! you have mentioned the fuel and the business tax reductions but there is also an extra 1 billion made available to support the farmers so again like Morrison's also said if anything the costs may go down.
Here's a link to the original story in the FT - http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/064cc436-5e7e-11e3-8621-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2tORf5udo
To me that seems pretty factual that the cost of distribution is much higher in Scotland. What isn't a given is that the Scottish government will be able to come good on fuel and tax reductions. Chances are they will be able to, but it isn't guaranteed.
-your link asks me to register and as iv already stated I'm aware of it and told you what the big supermarkets than stated after it, also yes it isnt guaranteed but neither is it impossible to believe the prices would com down as iv already stated
quote:
Originally posted by rustyarchsI don't think there is the need for a plan b as all things sensible point to keeping it, top economists, the governor of the bank of England and he is the man who counts. and of course the facts we own a rather large share in it and a pegged currency has been done before although on a much larger share! part of me would enjoy a separate currency as that way we would have full fiscal control.
To have no plan B is suicide! When has sensibility ever come into politics, especially when it involves a very public splitting of nations? Without the pound all these benefits that Salmond is suggesting will rapidly erode in the costs associated with setting up a new currency or being lumbered with the issues associated with the Euro. The UK could be very stubborn and cut its nose of to spite its face over this.
-I agree with what you are saying that to have no plan B is suicide which is why I'm worried that the UK has no plan B if Scotland does get independence! The UK is calling a bluff albeit rather a large one, even the bank of england has said we could use it! but even if they do decide to cut there own nose of surely you know Scotland doesn't need permission to use the pound? we could use it in thh same way as
Panama and Ecuador use the US dollar
quote:
Originally posted by rustyarchsLarge companies will still be happy in Scotland, cheaper rates, cheaper labour, cheaper rent and of course a huge market they would miss out on if they left! interesting thing though is nobody knows how much extra the Scottish governments budget will increase when business tax gets paid here instead of going down south although safe to say it will be an impressive figure.
As above, this relies heavily on the pound. If the government can't balance the books then the money will have to come from somewhere. There are lots of big businesses that have headquarters in Scotland that could easily shift somewhere else. I'm not saying they would move to England, there's a good chance they would opt for Ireland or elsewhere. These companies would be unlikely to lose out on much if they left as the Scottish people would still need their services and products. National boycotting of companies very rarely works.
- again why on earth would a business leave a viable market? would you as head of a multinational company really leave a peaceful financially healthy country shut down billions of pounds worth of sales, if and it is a IF teh tax is lowerd then that is another positive to bring more business to Scotland
quote:
Originally posted by rustyarchsYour not totally neutral that is obvious with the comment on Salmond avoiding the gaps in information when its pretty clear the UK government are the ones with the gaps or should that be abysses.
I never said I was totally neutral, I'm just more neutral than others as it is likely to have less direct impact on my life. Of course the UK government have massive gaps, they don't want to see the split happen. If Salmond is to convince enough people he should be giving more information. I appreciate that a lot of it has to be guess work and the UK government are not helping, however, do you really trust that he isn't just on a massive power trip that won't leave Scotland open to lots potential issues going forwards
- I believe he is a Scot and is on a fight as he has been many years for Scots to have true democracy for us to be governed by people we vote in. to be ruled by people who want the best for us and not to have to divert funds elsewhere so to hit a demographic of more voters for a certain party! by the way i will happily vote Salmond out and someone else in who has the interests of Scotland at heart! he can only give so much information and he has on the white paper and many other statements sadly however there is parts he cant answer as so far there is hardly anything the UK government has said a distinct YES or NO to instead they say it will all be discussed after the referendum, including cameron not being willing to debate despite being asked many times!. Do you think he should debate with Salmond as 2 head of country's should or why shouldn't he?
What are your thoughts on the Commonwealth Games in terms of swinging voters? Scotland are going to have to be seen as pushing how great Britain is and supporting all nations at the games. That must be seriously grating at Salmond etc.
- i dont see why Salmond isn't noted for talking digs at Britain or England he does however praise Scotland and i cant see it being that big an issue as the world already loves Scotland
One thing that is for certain is the UK will be worse off without Scotland, Scotland could easily be worse off too.
-Agreed 100% but it's a risk worth taking for us!
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rustyarchs
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Location: scotland
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can i also say i bow down before your quoting skills
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alan-g-w
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Location: Glasgow
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http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/alex-salmond-insists-no-plan-3147426
This is why I do not rate Salmond as a politician. He's quick to make a point of how the Tory PM won't get into the ring with him for some stupid American style political sparring but when it comes to the currency an independent Scotland might use he spits the dummy. No talk about how he's going to negotiate further to come to a resolve, immediate, arrogant defiance of 'It's fine, well force them into it without talks'. Lunacy.
I heard someone come up with a great analogy for Scotland leaving and retaining the pound - imagine you were the co-owner of a company along with 3 other shareholders. You decide that you want to leave the company and withdraw your shares accordingly. After that, however, you then ask the remaining three shareholders to still handle the banking side of your finances, leaving it out of your hands. The three remaining shareholders would tell you to GTF. This is what Salmond is looking to do, it's laughable.
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Hammer
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Registered: 11th Feb 04
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Why do you continually bring up Salmond? This isn't a vote for Salmond or the SNP.
They clearly have a fair way to go to get that point across to some people.
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