chris_uk
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Registered: 8th Jul 03
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but if i was using numbers its done within a second...
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chris_uk
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quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo
quote:
Originally posted by chris_uk
have you ever heard the term..
'if its broke dont fix it'
can you please tell me whats broke about the current system??
Have you seen the amount of credit card fraud? 
yes of cause, but do you really think that your dads new system will stop it?
no.
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Cosmo
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Registered: 29th Mar 01
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul_J
quote:
Originally posted by John
Major hurdle it has is that people don't like change.
It was a farce when we moved from signatures to PIN's and the PIN was something most people already used anyway.
Imagine trying to get them to remember something new.
Exactly! I remember my mum going 'I don't even think my card has a pin' ... I said 'Don't you ever withdraw money from a ATM with your pin?' ... she went 'no, I usually just get money out from a bank' 
This is the same woman that when she goes to use her card online, gets prompted for some Visa Secure verification password, which she CAN NEVER REMEMBER... She entered it once, and forgets it by the time she actually uses the card online again (6 months + later) ...
I think she has all her passwords written down now... utterly defeating the point of any security.
I do totally agree with this, 100%.
But as John pointed out, those who were confused by the PIN easily got the hang of it. And the same would be for this IF banks implemented it. Its really no harder to remember a 4 symbol PIN over a 4 number pin (they have plenty of studies that show 90% of people remember symbols better over numbers) - and for the sake of a few seconds for the huge amount of security I dont think banks would be turning their noses up at something that could save them billions in fraud payouts.
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Cosmo
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Registered: 29th Mar 01
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quote:
Originally posted by chris_uk
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo
quote:
Originally posted by chris_uk
have you ever heard the term..
'if its broke dont fix it'
can you please tell me whats broke about the current system??
Have you seen the amount of credit card fraud?
yes of cause, but do you really think that your dads new system will stop it?
no.
So you've just looked at the theory and statistics behind it then?
Im going to hazzard a guess that the banks who are spending a huge amount trialling it know a little more about it 
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chris_uk
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Registered: 8th Jul 03
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but its not a case of remembering the symbols is it?
its a case of finding them on a keypad and putting them in when everytime you do it they are in a different place.
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Cosmo
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Registered: 29th Mar 01
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quote:
Originally posted by chris_uk
but if i was using numbers its done within a second...
So you'd be happy saving you those 2 seconds, even if you were then the victim of credit card fraud?
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Paul_J
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Registered: 6th Jun 02
Location: London
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quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo
Its not just for bank transfers, that was an example given
Its for anything from logging onto your PC, to using your credit card at a shop, to entering a secured area using a keypad.
Ok then, so how do you get the symbols to swap places and move about in shops on a keypad? 
Or when I go to enter my pin at a ATM?
Touch screen replacing the standard key pad? Sounds a expensive job to replace every keypad across the uk with a touch screen one.
Cosmo yes people can already see people type their pin in... At ATM's or in a shop, but people 'Should' cover their pin and because it's so common to them, they often can type it in within a split second, so all you saw was 4 fingers dart across a key pad ...
What I'm saying is, your method is quite possibly not much more secure and just a pain in the arse to restructure to use / re train people etc.
Despite people obviously 'supposed to stand there and look first and work it out' and then type in their pin quickly... I doubt it'd be the case.
If the person knows that their pin is 3 Banana 4 Dog
Then they'll quickly type the 3 into the keypad (as they won't even have to think to hit that number), then pause for a moment find the banana, and press that (the pause meaning it wasn't a number, so could only be 2 symbols), then quickly hit 4 as they know where that is, then search for dog.
So you'd have 3, (2 possible symbols), 4, (2 possible symbols).
Making a total of 4 possible pins
3, Banana, 4, Elephant
3, Orange, 4, Elephant
3, Banana, 4, Dog
3, Orange, 4, Dog
If you were determined to get in, that'd take no time at all to try and you'd have access anyway...
and before you say 'well, if they get their pin wrong more than 3 times it should lock them out...' - I think this sort of system would need to allow people to make mistakes often, as it'd ultimately be liable for people to hit wrong things often!
Finally, I could imagine some old biddy actually hitting the 2, then going 'hmm where's the Banana? I can't see the banana on the pad... oh hang on there it is'
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Cosmo
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quote:
Originally posted by chris_uk
but its not a case of remembering the symbols is it?
its a case of finding them on a keypad and putting them in when everytime you do it they are in a different place.
Yes, but you've just proved it only took you 2 more seconds. Its no more different than looking on a keypad for the numbers, or being stood at a cash machine and following the on screen instructions (where they change) to get cash out (even using standard pin).
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chris_uk
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Registered: 8th Jul 03
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well ive had my card for 8 years now and ive been ok so far.
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chris_uk
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Registered: 8th Jul 03
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i could put my pin number for my HSBC bank into my signature and i doubt very very much that any of my money will go missing
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Paul_J
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Registered: 6th Jun 02
Location: London
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quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo
quote:
Originally posted by Paul_J
I enter my normal pin I use at my bank and it denies me...
Sadly I've forgotten that my online only pin was Guitar, Monkey, 3, Car
I sadly couldn't make a good story about A monkey with 3 guitars in a car.
You just did make up a good story
DID I?? 
Was my pin Monkey, 3, Guitar, Car?????
No it was Guitar, Monkey, 3, Car... A perfect example of how making up stories can confuse you.
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Brett
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Registered: 16th Dec 02
Location: Manchester
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As said, I think it's a good idea, and most "problems" in this thread are clutching at straws really. Although, I hate to say it because it can only mean your rich scouse bastard family will make even more money
People do hate change yeah, but they want more security for their money so they're getting it.
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chris_uk
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Registered: 8th Jul 03
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you look at where its used atm..
in a shop
you put your card in, put in your number leave.. if anyone saw it the only way they are going to get anything is if they stole your card.
online @ play.com
you are asked to logon.. email and password. from there you cant even see your own details.
online banking
you are asked for a id number, account number, sort code, date of birth and 3 random digits of a 6 - 8 digit code.
how would this new system be benificial to any of these 3 situation?
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Cosmo
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Registered: 29th Mar 01
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul_J
Ok then, so how do you get the symbols to swap places and move about in shops on a keypad?
Or when I go to enter my pin at a ATM?
Touch screen replacing the standard key pad? Sounds a expensive job to replace every keypad across the uk with a touch screen one.
No, the PINOptic Grid appears on the screen, and you look at it and enter the numbers on the standard number pad. No replacing of anything on the machine needed, no touchscreen needed, just software changes.
quote:
Cosmo yes people can already see people type their pin in... At ATM's or in a shop, but people 'Should' cover their pin and because it's so common to them, they often can type it in within a split second, so all you saw was 4 fingers dart across a key pad ...
What I'm saying is, your method is quite possibly not much more secure and just a pain in the arse to restructure to use / re train people etc.
Its at least 100x more secure than a pin, it can actually be more if you expand the grid, and can be made less with a smaller grid.
I cant (legally) post up the science behind it all - but their is a reason the big big banks are interested in it.
quote:
Despite people obviously 'supposed to stand there and look first and work it out' and then type in their pin quickly... I doubt it'd be the case.
If the person knows that their pin is 3 Banana 4 Dog
Then they'll quickly type the 3 into the keypad (as they won't even have to think to hit that number), then pause for a moment find the banana, and press that (the pause meaning it wasn't a number, so could only be 2 symbols), then quickly hit 4 as they know where that is, then search for dog.
So you'd have 3, (2 possible symbols), 4, (2 possible symbols).
Making a total of 4 possible pins
3, Banana, 4, Elephant
3, Orange, 4, Elephant
3, Banana, 4, Dog
3, Orange, 4, Dog
If you were determined to get in, that'd take no time at all to try and you'd have access anyway...
and before you say 'well, if they get their pin wrong more than 3 times it should lock them out...' - I think this sort of system would need to allow people to make mistakes often, as it'd ultimately be liable for people to hit wrong things often!
So you're saying someone quickly entering a 3 is an obvious thing, but someone quickly entering just a standard PIN isnt?! What if they have just symbols - what then?
quote:
Finally, I could imagine some old biddy actually hitting the 2, then going 'hmm where's the Banana? I can't see the banana on the pad... oh hang on there it is'
Well thats their choice, much like I seriously doubt you get an old biddie entering their PIN fast at the moment. Its probably easily slow enough for someone to remember it.
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Paul_J
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Registered: 6th Jun 02
Location: London
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quote:
Originally posted by chris_uk
i could put my pin number for my HSBC bank into my signature and i doubt very very much that any of my money will go missing
Yeah exactly...
Pin is not really that important... Only useful if someone mugs you or gets a copy of your card...
Both of which, I think using a process of elimination now they have your card, could get them access anyway eventually - even with the symbols.
So Pointless...
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Brett
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Registered: 16th Dec 02
Location: Manchester
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quote:
Originally posted by chris_uk
in a shop
you put your card in, put in your number leave.. if anyone saw it the only way they are going to get anything is if they stole your card.
Card cloning? Mainly staff doing it scanning the card then either videoing or remembering the numbers by looking over. This would stop that.
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Cosmo
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Registered: 29th Mar 01
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quote:
Originally posted by chris_uk
well ive had my card for 8 years now and ive been ok so far.
quote:
Originally posted by chris_uk
i could put my pin number for my HSBC bank into my signature and i doubt very very much that any of my money will go missing
Then you're lucky.
But why did the banks spend stupid amounts of money changing from sigs to PINs? And now wanting to move away from PINs? They are actively looking to replace it.
CC Fraud is one of the banks biggest costs, and if they can find something that cuts it then they'll jump at it. And failing installing retina scanners or DNA tests in all shops, ATMS, homes, then a PIN type entry is the next best.
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Paul_J
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Registered: 6th Jun 02
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All I'm saying is... fair enough it may be introduced, but in the long run if criminals still want to get your details and use your pin, they'll still be able to, it may just take them slightly more effort / slightly longer...
So in the long run, crime etc won't be reduced, just your family Cosmo will be even richer...
Bottom line is, Cosmo Wins...
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chris_uk
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Registered: 8th Jul 03
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quote:
Originally posted by loafofbrett
quote:
Originally posted by chris_uk
in a shop
you put your card in, put in your number leave.. if anyone saw it the only way they are going to get anything is if they stole your card.
Card cloning? Mainly staff doing it scanning the card then either videoing or remembering the numbers by looking over. This would stop that.
i wouldnt quite say it would stop it, althought it might make it alittle harder..
i mean ffs, if the shop is going to try clone cards, why not jsut put a security camera behind you looking directly at your pin machine..
your fucked either way then.
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Cosmo
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Registered: 29th Mar 01
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quote:
Originally posted by loafofbrett
As said, I think it's a good idea, and most "problems" in this thread are clutching at straws really. Although, I hate to say it because it can only mean your rich scouse bastard family will make even more money
People do hate change yeah, but they want more security for their money so they're getting it.
Exactly - I wouldnt mind betting that if anyone used this system for a month they'd soon be doing it in an unnoticeable amount of extra time over a standard PIN yet getting 100x the security.
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chris_uk
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Registered: 8th Jul 03
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but lets be realistic.. you are not getting 100x the security are you..
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Paul_J
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Registered: 6th Jun 02
Location: London
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quote:
Originally posted by loafofbrett
quote:
Originally posted by chris_uk
in a shop
you put your card in, put in your number leave.. if anyone saw it the only way they are going to get anything is if they stole your card.
Card cloning? Mainly staff doing it scanning the card then either videoing or remembering the numbers by looking over. This would stop that.
It wouldn't STOP it... it'd just give a few more combinations it MAY be.
If you video it, you'd see the symbols that were displayed at the time.
I think at most it'd make 81 combinations... but if you can rule out certain things, like 'You know' the first digit was a number... or you know every pin only has 2 symbols max in it etc, it will reduce the combinations signifcantly.
My point is, if people are still determined enough - they can still get access. Which considering people would be under the illusion of 'safety' may be even more worth while doing.
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Brett
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Registered: 16th Dec 02
Location: Manchester
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quote:
Originally posted by chris_uk
i mean ffs, if the shop is going to try clone cards, why not jsut put a security camera behind you looking directly at your pin machine..
your fucked either way then.
You clearly don't understand what's on offer with this system.
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Brett
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Registered: 16th Dec 02
Location: Manchester
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul_J
I think at most it'd make 81 combinations
Banks don't allow people unlimited attempts at PINs you know
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Cosmo
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Registered: 29th Mar 01
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quote:
Originally posted by chris_uk
you look at where its used atm..
in a shop
you put your card in, put in your number leave.. if anyone saw it the only way they are going to get anything is if they stole your card.
Cards get stolen after people watch you use them ALL the time. Its probably one of the largest types of CC fraud.
quote:
online @ play.com
you are asked to logon.. email and password. from there you cant even see your own details.
It would replace the standard log in - so you wouldnt have a password but would have the grid to enter the pin. At home you are fine, but anywhere where you use a public computer (school, Uni, work) your password is vulnerable.
quote:
online banking
you are asked for a id number, account number, sort code, date of birth and 3 random digits of a 6 - 8 digit code.
Again as with Play, you would use this as you log in, and/or when you want to send money out of your account or make changes.
Its more secure than entering all those details, even the 3 random digits of a code. And Id hazzard a guess its also quicker than working out the 1st, 4th and 7th number of a code.
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